Customer Killed During Robbery- (BODY ARMOR QUESTION)

[Will938]

Now look at GC's statements.

After being shot, if you are alive, alert and animated; chances are pretty high you'll survive.

What happened to

the key to surviving GSW's generally remains controlling the bleeding and getting expert medical treatment.

I think he means if you're alive and animated, you can control the bleeding and get to a medical expert before you bleed out. The chances are very high of surviving a gunshot, but chances are also high that you won't need any ammo in any confrontation you get into. Its all about comfort zones, I would be uncomfortable with 5 rounds but I'm comfortable w/o body armor at the moment. If I was in a risky job I might be uncomfortable with IIA armor and want something better.

[Lucky45]

I was basically pointing out the hypocritical statement made. If all you need is expert medical treatment, then why do you have to be alert and animated. What is wrong with motionless with blood in your lungs gurgling as you breath.

I'm not here advocating that everyone needs to get body armor. Don't know why some have that impression. This is a CHL forum and I figure body armor is a relevant topic to discuss since its purpose is to defeat a round penetrating.
The hypocrites are the ones that get on here and post their knives photos. They say I don't leave home without my XYZ gun and my XYZ knife.
But you don't hear anyone saying if you are so afraid that you need a gun and a kinfe, I suggest you either move, or don't leave the house.

Don't know why some people get a CHL and carrying knives, but that is just me.

[G.C.Montgomery]

For someone to imply that they are some sort of superhuman and if they get shot that they will survive it wearing body armor or not, is wishful thinking. I'm not apologetic about it. That is what I was getting at. People die from a single bee sting and there are plenty of hospitals around.

Now look at GC's statements.

After being shot, if you are alive, alert and animated; chances are pretty high you'll survive.

What happened to

the key to surviving GSW's generally remains controlling the bleeding and getting expert medical treatment.

I've never said I was superhuman and by no means did my statement imply it. As most who've met me can attest, I'm very much a soft and squishy human capable of breaking just as easily as any other.

There's nothing contradictor about my statements. I failed to connect the two in that I should have said that if you are alive, alert and animated after being shot, your chances of surving are very high provided you control the bleeding and seek treatment. That's my mistake for not writing more clearly. But the fact remains, a GSW in and of itself is not necessarily a death sentence. It is thinking like that, which gets more people killed. If your mindset is, "Oh no, I've been shot!...I'm gonna die!" then you surely will.

I offered you facts to contradict the notion that being shot means automatic death and you've completely ignored that to zero in on my supposed implication of superhuman strength. OK, fine I'll try to give better examples.

My father, was shot through the leg in the early 1970's. I'm here today, as his he which is pretty good evidence that he survived. He drove himself to the hospital, they cleaned the wound, wrapped it and sent him home after about an hour. But I suppose you don't believe he could have bled to death with a .45 cal GSW to the thigh.

So I'll give you another example, a friend who works narcotics today was called to a domestic disturbance early in his career while still in patrol. He arrived at scene where the "victim" had been shot six times with a .45 in the chest by his girlfriend whom, he'd spent the afternoon beating. Not only did he not die, he wasn't even at the scene. My friend had to track the guy two-miles down Jensen Drive, ON FOOT! My friend offered the guy an ambulance and the man refused saying, "Nah, man. I'm too PO'd right now...." and KEPT WALKING! He finally lost enough blood to pass out at which time my friend secured him and called an ambulance. The subject was released from the hospital three days later.

Another example I witnessed at John Sealy hospital in Galveston. A guy came in after attempting suicide. Long-story short, hanging skin from massive GSW on left side of head and a small bump on the other. X-Ray's showed no trauma to the eyes or brain. A small incision was made on the bump and a bullet promptly popped out like the worlds biggest zit. Man was turned over for psych evaluation and observation but released a couple days later with prescriptions for depression, pain and infection.

In 2005, an HPD officer was shot in the face during a traffic stop. Montelongo never lost conciousness, radioed the descriptions and address of the shooter since he had the driver's license in hand at the time of the shoorting. BGs were promptly arrested. Montelongo spent some extra time in the hospital for cosmetic rapairs but, the fact remains, he survived and is still on active duty with HPD today.

I'm not saying all these folks aren't incredibly lucky in some sense. But, in each case, they survived mainly because they got medical treatment and their wounds weren't immediately life threatening as is the case with most handgun wounds. As I've rambled on here, I've come to the conclusion that I can't convince you. You'll just have to figure it out on your own and form your own opinion. Right now, I've gotta take my wife out to eat. I'm going out, with no body armor. I expect we'll probably have a very nice, uneventful meal at Pei Wei. It's possible something bad will happen but again, I'm not going to dwell on it. I'll take reasonable and practical precautions like wearing my seatbelt and my guns and knives. But I still expect just a fun dinner.

[Venus Pax]

I don't personally wear body armor; however, there was a time when I did not personally wear a gun either. (And it wasn't that long ago at all!)

I'm usually open to most ideas, but I just don't think its appropriate for me right now. I live a low-risk lifestyle, am watchful, and keep my gun with me in the event that my de-escalation skills fail me.

I'm actually more worried about a sleeper cell hitting one of the refineries in Baytown and causing a stink (pun fully intended) that migrates to my area. Short of contacting my representatives, there isn't much I can do but move, and I'm content here for the time being.

I'll have to agree with GC: if life out here gets to the point where we see multiple attacks in our everyday places, I'll do my homework on the best stuff and buy it. (I certainly won't let another's threat of violence keep me locked in my house.) I just don't feel we're there.

However, if you feel that body armor works for you, keep wearing it. You aren't hurting anyone. You're certainly not hurting yourself. In the years to come, the rest of us may join you.

[G.C.Montgomery]

OK, I'm back from dinner...And thinking a little clearer.

I was basically pointing out the hypocritical statement made. If all you need is expert medical treatment, then why do you have to be alert and animated. What is wrong with motionless with blood in your lungs gurgling as you breath.

Will938 understood my point, but again, I apologize for not being clearer. My statements however; weren’t contradictory. The key to surviving GSWs remains controlling the bleeding and getting to proper medical treatment as soon as possible. Ask any combat medic, EMT or other medical professional and I think they'll agree the best thing you can do is control the bleeding and seek medical help AFTER you win the fight.

If you are suffering from hemothorax, there isn’t much that can be done for you in the field by anyone not trained in diagnosing and treating that condition. Since you asked; if you are unconscious, it’s up to someone else to control the bleeding for you and get medical attention for you to ensure survival. And as I said before, if you are alive, awake and animated then your chances of survival are pretty good. The reason is the fact that you are still conscious and animated means you’ve got good circulation and aren’t losing blood at a sufficient rate to deprive the brain of oxygen and render you unconscious. So if you are still up, you can still fight and you can act to control your own bleeding and summon help rather than lying helplessly on the pavement like a wounded duck.
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I'm not here advocating that everyone needs to get body armor.

Now that seems contradictory to your reply to my first post. When I stated my reasoning for not wearing body armor, you singled out my response and said…

I think that is wishful thinking. (optimistic at best) I could take that attitude with car insurance too. The way I drive, I don't need it. But someday someone might hit my car unexpectedly.

And then followed it up with...

There is no such thing as EXTREME. The fact that the world is not utopia, then everyone should EXPECT that someday they might be confronted by some sort of danger.

So if I’m going to make wild inferences I could say you are inferring that I must be in a state of denial if I don’t see a need to wear body armor everyday. The inference is that I simply must expect that I will be in a protracted, Hollywood style gunfight in which body armor will be the determing factor of victory. Fact is, I examined my lifestyle and came to the conclusion it’s not practical for daily use and I don't believe body armor will factor into my survival more than a tool I can actively use to resolve the problem such as a gun, knife or other weapon. I do believe there are times that I am at higher than normal risk and that it might be prudent to have body armor at those times.
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…This is a CHL forum and I figure body armor is a relevant topic to discuss since its purpose is to defeat a round penetrating.

I don't recall anyone saying body armor isn't relevant. I and others did however state WE didn't feel the need to wear body armor on a regular basis. If you have determined that you face sufficient risk to deal with the hassles of body armor, then that’s your choice and I support your decision. I haven’t gotten there yet and I hope things never get to the point that I feel the need to wear armor everyday. If they do, I will likely also openly carry a rifle and I won’t expect to hear any protests from law enforcement. The closest I’ve been to that situation thus far was the mass hysteria caused by Hurricane Rita. Someone working in a convenience store might feel differently but I'm a professional "geek" and I just don't see the need to roll that way.

[stroo]

I also don't wear or even own body armor. And when I really think about my lifestyle it really doesn't make sense for me to even carry a gun, although I do. In 53 years, I have never been in a real fight, not even in high school. Never been held up, never been burgled, knock on wood. I live in a safe city, work in a safe city and my commute is in pretty safe areas. I don't frequent bars, strip joints or any other dangerous places other than church. Frankly while I enjoy my life, it is about as safe as you can get. I just don't see the need to wear body armor given all that.

[Lucky45]

Lucky45 wrote:
I'm not here advocating that everyone needs to get body armor.

Now that seems contradictory to your reply to my first post. When I stated my reasoning for not wearing body armor, you singled out my response and said…

Lucky45 wrote:
I think that is wishful thinking. (optimistic at best) I could take that attitude with car insurance too. The way I drive, I don't need it. But someday someone might hit my car unexpectedly.

hey GC,
Don't try to misquote my statements and leave out relevant lines. I think everyone can read and follow for themselves. That second quote was in response to your statement ....

"And even if I get shot, there's a very high probability I'll survive it whether I've got on body armor or not."

So don't misguide anyone here. And to clarify my analogy, it meant that no matter how safe I am on the road avoiding all "situations"/"hazards", I could have some fool come from nowhere and blindside my car unexpectedly. So that is being optimistic if I think i would never be involved in an accident in my lifetime.

[Liberty]

I figure body armer would cause more life threatening conditions than it would mitgate. In this part of Texas heat stroke could be more of a threat than getting shot in the torso.

[TX Rancher]

I'm not here advocating that everyone needs to get body armor. Don't know why some have that impression. This is a CHL forum and I figure body armor is a relevant topic to discuss since its purpose is to defeat a round penetrating.

Valid point, this is a CHL forum and it seems body armor would be a valid discussion.

The hypocrites are the ones that get on here and post their knives photos. They say I don't leave home with my XYZ gun and my XYZ knife.

I assume that you meant “…without my XYZ gun…� and I will base my comments on that assumption. I don’t really see those folks as hypocrites. To me that’s no different in context then someone deciding to wear a seatbelt, putting an alarm system in their house, or insisting on locking their doors before they go to bed. In each of those cases there’s a valid argument to both sides.

But you don't hear anyone saying if you are so afraid that you need a gun and a kinfe, I suggest you either move, or don't leave the house.

Moving is definitely a valid option instead of carrying a knife or a firearm. I’m sure many folks would decide to move rather then carry, and I would support their decision. But some decide to better their odds a little by carrying, and stay living where they are, and I support their decision also.

Don't know why some people get a CHL and carrying knives, but that is just me.

.

I don’t know how many times I’ve driven in the last year, but on average I would say ~3-4 times per day. I always put my seatbelt on, and I haven’t been in an accident in close to 30 years where I needed it. Someone could argue I don’t need to wear it, and statistically they would be right. But on the very slim chance that I will need it, I wear it, and it’s got nothing to do with the seatbelt laws.

The odds I will need my weapon are equally slim, but when possible I carry anyway. It’s really not an inconvenience, so to me the potential benefit outweighs the downside. I can’t say the same for body armor. I have worn it and it was not comfortable in hot weather, or for that mater in cold either. For me the inconvenience outweighs the potential benefit. Could I be proven wrong, you bet, but obviously I don’t think so.

To me it’s about trade-offs, and no two people are on the exact same level. I have folks tell me I’m paranoid since I carry, and I’ve had folks tell me I’m stupid since I don’t carry at least 3 additional clips. I’ve had folks tell me I’m dumb for having a rifle in the house, and people call me an idiot living in la-la land for not having a trunk rifle with at least 200 rounds loaded in clips and ready for action. I’ve drawn the lines where they make sense for me, and body armor didn't make the cut.

[GrillKing]

To me it’s about trade-offs, and no two people are on the exact same level. I have folks tell me I’m paranoid since I carry, and I’ve had folks tell me I’m stupid since I don’t carry at least 3 additional clips. I’ve had folks tell me I’m dumb for having a rifle in the house, and people call me an idiot living in la-la land for not having a trunk rifle with at least 200 rounds loaded in clips and ready for action. I’ve drawn the lines where they make sense for me, and body armor didn't make the cut.

TX Rancher, I agree.

I carry a 5 shot, J-frame size revolver as my carry piece because that's the trade-off I've chosen. My balance between convenience and ability to respond to threat. If someone else doesn't want to carry, fine by me. If someone else carries 3 handguns and 9 mags, fine by me. We each have to decide what is right [abbreviated profanity deleted] ourselves.

Although, I have to admit, this thread has made me think about body armor for the range. The most 'threatened' I've ever felt around guns has been at the range, due to other people's safety awareness far below where it should be.

[Renegade]

When I lived in a cold-weather climate (NY/NJ), I wore it every day. I had a Second Chance insert that replaced the thermal liner on a M-65 field jacket. It was great. Wore Body Armor whenever I left the home, and this amounted almost 6-7 months of the year.

[yerasimos]

Risking thread drift here . . .

Before spending the $$$ on a ballistic vest/body armor, it might make more sense to invest in some upgraded medical gear that you can carry on your person and in your vehicle, as well as the training/knowledge to use it (first aid/immediate self-care training).

On some other fora, I have read of references to BOK (blow-out kits) or VOK (ventilated operator kits). These go beyond the finger bandages and Neosporin packets in a standard first aid kit, and include things like rubber tourniquets, compression bandages and clotting agent. As I understand, the idea with these is to reduce/stop blood loss immediately and extend the time window between the time injuries are sustained and the time professional medical assistance arrives. Others have noted that the greater Houston area has plenty of fine medical facilities, but can you really count on someone else calling 911 for you or coming to your aid? What if there is no gunfire and you get shanked? Body armor (or more specifically, ballistic armor) is not designed to protect from handheld pointy/edged weapons, and you can bleed pretty badly from wounds on your arms or legs.

In the spirit of trying to align everything in your favor (avoiding the three stupids, carrying a gun and a cell phone, keeping a defense attorney's card with your DL and CHL, even springing for the body armor as some have chosen to do), consider what you can do about the medical aftermath and self-care angle, too.

JM2CW, take it or leave it.

[Lucky45]

When I lived in a cold-weather climate (NY/NJ), I wore it every day.

Hey Renegade,
what challenges did you have while you were wearing and interacting with people? Also, did anyone notice from your choice of clothing?

[Lucky45]

GrillKing wrote:

Although, I have to admit, this thread has made me think about body armor for the range. The most 'threatened' I've ever felt around guns has been at the range, due to other people's safety awareness far below where it should be.

hey GrillKing,
I know you might not believe me, but guess what happened today at the range. Well, I'm on the 25yd firing line and up comes the Range Officer telling me that I was not going to believe what just happened to him. He then proceeds to open his hand and show me a deformed bullet which he said just struck him in waistline area. Yep, I said, "What!!!" The bullet, he said, probably ricocheted off a target or something and came back. He was walking behind the line.

But, I was looking up and down the line for some crazy person that looks like they don't know what they were doing, and ready to jump their case. Amazing how things happen.