Deadly force in response to pepper spray?

[77346]

My CHL instructor told the class that he could kill a person with just a spoon... I wonder what he could do with with pepper spray!

I think the scenario presented is too vague to respond.

[The Annoyed Man]

My CHL instructor told the class that he could kill a person with just a spoon... I wonder what he could do with with pepper spray!

I think the scenario presented is too vague to respond.

There is no spoon. Ask him "what then?"

[RPB]

My CHL instructor told the class that he could kill a person with just a spoon... I wonder what he could do with with pepper spray!

I think the scenario presented is too vague to respond.

There is no spoon. Ask him "what then?"

Oh Neo ...

[Beiruty]

I would claim, that the initial unprovoked attack by the BG with pepper spray, is the initial phase of aggravated robbery or kidnapping. Deadly force is authorized, Period.

[03Lightningrocks]

A concern I have always had about carrying a handgun is that if my attacker gets the better of me, I could easily end up dead by my own bullet. Unfortunately, I have no choice if attacked. Regardless of weapon my attacker chooses, I will not be disarmed, and shot by my own gun, while waiting around to see if I am out matched. Laws be darned! My objective is to stay alive.

[dihappy]

But in Texas, you can only use deadly force during a robbery at NIGHT. Correct? So you'd have to show and prove something besides robbery if this happened during the day.

Let's say that this guy did spray you, what, are you going to just start shooting in a random direction? How can you even see? What if you shoot someone else?

[Jumping Frog]

But in Texas, you can only use deadly force during a robbery at NIGHT. Correct?

Nope, not correct.

You are thinking of defense of property, theft during nighttime. Robbery is a 24 hour reason to get shot and falls under defense of person.

[kjolly]

you get pepper sprayed out of nowhere without any explanation and I would have to immediatly decide this person is not after my best welfare. After the disabling who knows what the intentions will be. I would go for stopping power if I was able. This precludes I had done nothing to atagonize or bring this onto myself.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Let's say that this guy did spray you, what, are you going to just start shooting in a random direction? How can you even see? What if you shoot someone else?

Of course not; the law on "recklessly" injuring or killing an innocent 3rd person still applies. But being sprayed doesn't mean your only firing option is to shoot randomly. Your scenario is also a very good example why Texas law does not require innocent people to "take the first shot" whether that be from a firearm, stun gun, or pepper spray. Assuming the so-called Castle Doctrine presumption doesn't apply, then the legal standard remains a "reasonable belief that deadly force is immediately necessary."

Chas.

[cheezit]

‘take your victim as you find them’ is pretty interesting stuff. the wrong person being sprayed is deadly force. I think this is pretty much were Chaz was headed.

[mamabearCali]

If someone has just pepper sprayed me I have to think they are intent on incapacitating me so they can do worse to me. I think I have to try and defend myself if I can.

[Charles L. Cotton]

The presence of a can of pepper spray is just one factor in a scenario that must be considered. If a friend is playing around and points pepper spray at you, or sprays you, there's no reason to believe you are in danger of serious bodily injury or death. (This assumes you don't have asthma or some other respiratory problem that could make the "assault" deadly.) If a LEO does likewise, you would not be justified in using deadly force.

However in my view, when for no apparent reason a stranger (or someone you know to be violent) threatens or uses pepper spray against you, it is no different than them coming at you with a stun gun or Taser. All are intended to incapacitate you. Depending upon the surrounding circumstances, this could very well lead a reasonable person to believe that they are in danger of being killed or suffering serious bodily injury if they don't defend themselves. At the end of the day, we have to be able to convince those who get to evaluate our actions (police, prosecutors, grand jury, and possibly a judge and jury) that we "reasonably believed deadly force was immediately necessary" to prevent our "attacker's" use of unlawful deadly force.

In my CHL classes and in my seminar on Texas self-defense and deadly force laws, we discuss a concept I call "society's box of expectations." The concept deals with the public's perception of what is acceptable in self-defense scenarios. When our actions are outside this box of expectations, we better have a good explanation why we did what we did. Shooting someone who used what the public perceives as a non-lethal weapon is outside the box, so we have to be able to explain why we did what we did. Notice I said the "public's perception," not LEO's, prosecutors and judges. In that order, they tend to have more knowledge on such issues than does the general public.

Chas.

[gigag04]

It's not so much the spray itself, but how incapable you are after being sprayed that matters.

[barstoolguru]

As other have stated it seems to be the beginning of an assault of some kind. JMO I see no other reason someone would PS you but cause you harm (maybe robbing) if in fact you are not doing anything wrong. Texas has no restrictions on PS that I know of but some other states do and that can add to the assault too as far as the level of the assault

[mamabearCali]

Of course if it is my buddy that pepper sprayed me as he was messing around with his keychain I am merely going to chew his hind parts off as I swear and curse washing off the spray. He/she can pay for a new set of contacts for me, since they just ruined a pair of mine! As for the police....well of course you should not shoot at the police, even if they are wrong in spraying you, you will end up dead if bullets start flying. Prob the best thing to do is to try and remain calm, take shallow breaths and keep your eyes closed.

However I was under the impression that this was a stranger coming out of the blue spraying a person. I kind of put this in the same catagory as tying someone up.....it may not be lethal, but a perp would only tie a person up in order to do something to them that they could not do otherwise. That is why I will NEVER EVER let myself be tied up. So if a stranger accosts me and assaults me by pepper spraying me then I will assume they are attempting to render me unable to defend myself and will act accordingly.