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Re: Churches that meet in public schools - let's change the
Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:17 pm
by 74novaman
reh wrote: Seriously though, I'm not asking to carry during school days, or even when school activities are going on (if there happened to be a school event at the same time as our services - then we wouldn't be allowed to carry that day).
Why not?
And I'm being serious. I'm around kids at the grocery store, the mall, the movie theater, church, the park, in businesses......
Is there some magical line around schools that will make a CHL holder suddenly "unsafe" around kids on school property opposed to everywhere else they go?
I'd like to refer y'all to David Kopel's fantastic article in the Connecticut Law Review that can be read here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/30546045/Pret ... al-Fiction
A few relevant paragraphs for everyone (Though the whole article is worth a serious read):
In Utah, anyone with a concealed handgun permit may carry at any K –12 public school, and at any of the nine campuses in the Utah state college system, including in dormitories. Utah‘s Shall Issue statute was enacted in 1995.
The data from Utah campuses reveal no incidents of the slightest misuse of a firearm by a person with a legal permit. Nor is there any record of misuse of a firearm by a permit-holder in a K–12 school anywhere in Utah. There have been no instances of attempted mass murders at any school in Utah.....There are no known cases of any Utah public school teachers who legally have guns in school ever threatening a student. Nor are there any known cases of Utah high school students taking guns to school because they are afraid of their teachers. Nor are there any reports of any student,teacher, or professor at any educational institution anywhere in Utah reporting that they felt less willing to speak up in a classroom because they were afraid of licensed gun permitees. In sum, there has been a natural experiment which has lasted fourteen years in the Utah public schools, and for the same length of time in the Utah public colleges....There have been zero instances of the slightest evidence of any harm to academic freedom, let alone any case of misuse of a firearm by a licensed permit-holder.
Food for thought, anyway. There is absolutely no reason to continue to prohibit concealed carry on any campus. We've tried it the Anti gunner's way. All it got us was body bags from mass shootings across the country (the number of shootings spiked significantly AFTER the GFSZA was enacted, by the way).
My favorite definition of insanity is "doing the same thing and expecting different results". It's time we stopped insane policies that are proven failures.
I agree that we should legalize carry in schools. But at all times, for all CHL holders.
Re: Churches that meet in public schools - let's change the
Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:19 pm
by Oldgringo
flechero wrote:JCole wrote:Why do churches meet in public schools?
It's very common for new churches to meet in schools (because it's inexpensive) until they are established and can fund a building of their own.
We just got finished our capital campaign, so in out case we have about a year before the building will be (planned and) built and ready.
There it is! Been there, done that....in a previous life.
A change of churches will be a whole lot quicker than a change of that pretty much universal law. Just sayin....
Re: Churches that meet in public schools - let's change the
Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:25 pm
by Oldgringo
74novaman wrote:reh wrote: Seriously though, I'm not asking to carry during school days, or even when school activities are going on (if there happened to be a school event at the same time as our services - then we wouldn't be allowed to carry that day).
Why not?
And I'm being serious. I'm around kids at the grocery store, the mall, the movie theater, church, the park, in businesses......
Is there some magical line around schools that will make a CHL holder suddenly "unsafe" around kids on school property opposed to everywhere else they go?
I'd like to refer y'all to David Kopel's fantastic article in the Connecticut Law Review that can be read here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/30546045/Pret ... al-Fiction
A few relevant paragraphs for everyone (Though the whole article is worth a serious read):
In Utah, anyone with a concealed handgun permit may carry at any K –12 public school, and at any of the nine campuses in the Utah state college system, including in dormitories. Utah‘s Shall Issue statute was enacted in 1995.
The data from Utah campuses reveal no incidents of the slightest misuse of a firearm by a person with a legal permit. Nor is there any record of misuse of a firearm by a permit-holder in a K–12 school anywhere in Utah. There have been no instances of attempted mass murders at any school in Utah.....There are no known cases of any Utah public school teachers who legally have guns in school ever threatening a student. Nor are there any known cases of Utah high school students taking guns to school because they are afraid of their teachers. Nor are there any reports of any student,teacher, or professor at any educational institution anywhere in Utah reporting that they felt less willing to speak up in a classroom because they were afraid of licensed gun permitees. In sum, there has been a natural experiment which has lasted fourteen years in the Utah public schools, and for the same length of time in the Utah public colleges....There have been zero instances of the slightest evidence of any harm to academic freedom, let alone any case of misuse of a firearm by a licensed permit-holder.
Food for thought, anyway. There is absolutely no reason to continue to prohibit concealed carry on any campus. We've tried it the Anti gunner's way. All it got us was body bags from mass shootings across the country (the number of shootings spiked significantly AFTER the GFSZA was enacted, by the way).
My favorite definition of insanity is "doing the same thing and expecting different results". It's time we stopped insane policies that are proven failures.
I agree that we should legalize carry in schools. But at all times, for all CHL holders.
Utah is not burdened with a wide and divisive horde of dissenting religious sects with headquarters back yonder somewhere.
Re: Churches that meet in public schools - let's change the
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:03 am
by kjolly
I belonged to a church in a small Texas town and we met in the local American Legion Hall. Standing joke was the first people in had to clean up the beer cans from the night before.
Re: Churches that meet in public schools - let's change the
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:16 am
by Charles L. Cotton
This problem would be resolved if the first of a two-bill approach to campus-carry passes in 2013.
Chas.
Re: Churches that meet in public schools - let's change the
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:24 am
by 74novaman
Charles L. Cotton wrote:This problem would be resolved if the first of a two-bill approach to campus-carry passes in 2013.
Chas.
Excellent! When you can let us know what we need to do to help and who we need to talk to, I'm ready.
Looking forward to hopefully moving forward on campus carry in 2013.
Re: Churches that meet in public schools - let's change the
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:31 am
by reh
Charles - great point! This issue is closely tied with campus carry.
Re: Churches that meet in public schools - let's change the
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:10 pm
by recaffeination
74novaman wrote:reh wrote: Seriously though, I'm not asking to carry during school days, or even when school activities are going on (if there happened to be a school event at the same time as our services - then we wouldn't be allowed to carry that day).
Why not?
And I'm being serious. I'm around kids at the grocery store, the mall, the movie theater, church, the park, in businesses......
If there are kids at the church, there's no reason for different rules if there's a school activity with kids there too.
Re: Churches that meet in public schools - let's change the
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:12 pm
by C-dub
Charles L. Cotton wrote:This problem would be resolved if the first of a two-bill approach to campus-carry passes in 2013.
Chas.
2013 is shaping up to be a good year. I can hardly wait.
Re: Churches that meet in public schools - let's change the
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:31 pm
by gdanaher
We'd all be interested in the suggested legislation. Opt out option for colleges? Apply to public and private colleges? Apply to ISD facilities? Opt out options for local ISD's? Charter schools? My preference would be to not allow any opt out for any public facility but do allow for private schools to respect property rights. For me, charter schools are a problem because they take state tax dollars to educate children, but are privately owned. Humm.
Re: Churches that meet in public schools - let's change the
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:18 pm
by JCole
gdanaher wrote:We'd all be interested in the suggested legislation. Opt out option for colleges? Apply to public and private colleges? Apply to ISD facilities? Opt out options for local ISD's? Charter schools? My preference would be to not allow any opt out for any public facility but do allow for private schools to respect property rights. For me, charter schools are a problem because they take state tax dollars to educate children, but are privately owned. Humm.
Not for me...take tax dollars = follow public rules.
Re: Churches that meet in public schools - let's change the
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:18 pm
by jmra
gdanaher wrote:We'd all be interested in the suggested legislation. Opt out option for colleges? Apply to public and private colleges? Apply to ISD facilities? Opt out options for local ISD's? Charter schools? My preference would be to not allow any opt out for any public facility but do allow for private schools to respect property rights. For me, charter schools are a problem because they take state tax dollars to educate children, but are privately owned. Humm.
Off topic, but chater schools on average have posted as good or better scores than regular ISDs while saving the state 30% per student. I don't have a problem with that at all.
I must say that this statement surprises me given the fact that most on here prefer smaller government and public education is one of the largest government bodies there is.