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Even if old, this just reiterates the point that handguns really are not very good stoppers against a determined BG unless applied to the head.

I've also never heard of someone who regretted having "too much gun".

I'm surprised this is old. I saw it on a couple of news feeds and on the NRA Facebook.

AndyC wrote:

Keith B wrote:I personally am a fan of muzzle energy to get impact and penetration. I carry Corbon Pow'rBall ammo in my 9x19mm CCW's. When you look at the specs, it is a 110 grain bullet, but due to the +P nature of the charge, assuming you are shooting a 4" gun, it has a muzzle velocity of 1475fps and 483 ft-lbs of energy. That is more velocity and muzzle energy than a .357 magnum round. The .45 version of the Pow'rBall has a slower velocity 1225fps, but the muzzle energy is 550ft-lbs due to the 165gr bullet.

So how's the penetration on that thing? To me that's what counts.

I like it. Here are some tests.

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=kNqhB34UXeY[/youtube]

http://www.thegunzone.com/powrball.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=cFYFMkbGzwQ[/youtube]

If you don't hit anything important, it doesn't matter what caliber it is. Bigger calibers that expand just give one a better chance of hitting or nicking something important.

Even then there's no guarantee. Officer Stacy Lim was hit with a 357 magnum round and lived:
http://www.lapdonline.org/inside_the_la ... tacy%20Lim" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=27656" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This speaks to me about the following:

-Shot placement
-Rapid follow up shots

Humorously enough, I can't recall if it was someone on this board that said it, but it was something along the lines of "Keep shooting until it changes shape or catches on fire" .

This was actually Feb 2005 not 2006. Being from Baton Rouge I remember it well. It should be noted Perry Stevens (The Civilian who saved the LEO's life) had recently been in a severe accident, had difficulty walking and was wearing a neck brace at the time of the shooting. There is no way on Earth he could have stopped this guy with his hands, or a bat, or a knife, etc. The gun served as the great equalizer.

SQLGeek wrote:I'm surprised this is old. I saw it on a couple of news feeds and on the NRA Facebook.

Concealed Carry Permit Holder Saves Deputy Sheriff from Attacker
September 2, 2012
http://bonzerwolf.squarespace.com/today ... -atta.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Louisiana Concealed Carry Permit holder Perry Stevens was walking outside of the Auto Zone on Greenwell Springs Road when he heard Deputy Harrison yelling for help.

Keith B wrote:

SQLGeek wrote:I'm still OK with my G19 and Kahr CM9 both in 9mm but I'd lie if this story didn't give me pause.

Understand that a 9mm, while the same caliber diameter of a .380 has a much stronger charge behind the bullet. In turn you will get better penetration and shock capabilities.

I personally am a fan of muzzle energy to get impact and penetration. I carry Corbon Pow'rBall ammo in my 9x19mm CCW's. When you look at the specs, it is a 110 grain bullet, but due to the +P nature of the charge, assuming you are shooting a 4" gun, it has a muzzle velocity of 1475fps and 483 ft-lbs of energy. That is more velocity and muzzle energy than a .357 magnum round. The .45 version of the Pow'rBall has a slower velocity 1225fps, but the muzzle energy is 550ft-lbs due to the 165gr bullet. If you compare it to even their best .380 round, it has a 70 grain bullet, 1100fps and only 188ft-lbs of muzzle angry, way under half of the 9mm and a third of the .45.

<snip>

Appreciate the general discussion, but don't know that I agree with your numbers. According to this source: ballistics by the inch, the 9mm in any load cannot compare to a good load out of the .357 mag. It doesn't have the round you are discussing (Corbon 110g), but other 9mm Corbon +P rounds from 90 to 125 gr have muzzle energies of 417 to 442 ft.lb out of a 4" barrel. (So close enough to your numbers.) The .357 mag on the other hand, from same 4" barrel, in Corbon bullet weights of 125 to 140 gr, have muzzle energies of 600 to 620 ft.lb. And note that there is a 110 gr Corbon .357 mag at only 403 ft.lb, but I wouldn't call that representative.

Interestingly, the same site provides 70 gr Pow'r Ball ammo from a 4" barrel in .380 as having muzzle energy of 239 ft.lb, so that's 49.5% of your 9mm number rather than "way under half".

Still, getting >400 ft.lb out of a 9mm is impressive, but let's not confuse that with the .357 mag. And for all you ballistics junkies, that site is super cool!

Well here's my take on this and especially after watching this vid: http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=57826" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you don't blow out the aorta or damage the spinal cord significantly,,,,,the idea of a "one shot stop" is not real probable. When someone is on an adrenaline or drug/alcohol induced "high",,,,,several shots may have finally stopped the perp; but after what damage that he may have caused in the meantime?????

surprise_i'm_armed wrote:Let's recap this violent incident - 1 shot to the BG's abdomen by the officer. Probably a .40.

4 shots to the torso with a .45 - the Energizer bunny BG still keeps beating the LEO.

1 shot of .45 to the head to finally end this. It took 6 rounds of calibers starting with ."4" to end it. Really?

So - let's see a show of hands from the forum on who wants to move down in caliber to one of those cool .380's?

SIA

I don't have a .380, but I'll bet a head shot with the .380 would be fatal. I think the lesson here is that shooting once or twice may not be enough, no matter what caliber you're using. If you think the fact that a .45 didn't put him down without the head shot means that any smaller caliber is no good, then why not carry a .50 or .60 cal? Or just carry a bazooka? Seriously. Obviously the .45 wasn't good enough.

Or maybe we need to readjust our thinking and realize that handguns aren't one shot man killers.

The point is, don't stop shooting until the threat is neutralized, not never use anything but a .45.

I have no problem carrying my EDC .357 Sig or my 9mm. I'll probably never have a .45. I don't like them. I also don't like Glocks. So shoot me.

What nobody commented on was the fact that this guy shot a man five times who was grappling with the police officer, and every one of his shots hit the BG and not the officer and not a bystander. Kudos to the shooter for obviously having practiced a lot and for a steady hand in a scary situation. I don't know if I would have fired. I might have pistol whipped the BG instead. I'd have been very concerned about shooting the officer by mistake.

SlowDave wrote:Appreciate the general discussion, but don't know that I agree with your numbers. According to this source: ballistics by the inch, the 9mm in any load cannot compare to a good load out of the .357 mag. It doesn't have the round you are discussing (Corbon 110g), but other 9mm Corbon +P rounds from 90 to 125 gr have muzzle energies of 417 to 442 ft.lb out of a 4" barrel. (So close enough to your numbers.) The .357 mag on the other hand, from same 4" barrel, in Corbon bullet weights of 125 to 140 gr, have muzzle energies of 600 to 620 ft.lb. And note that there is a 110 gr Corbon .357 mag at only 403 ft.lb, but I wouldn't call that representative.

Interestingly, the same site provides 70 gr Pow'r Ball ammo from a 4" barrel in .380 as having muzzle energy of 239 ft.lb, so that's 49.5% of your 9mm number rather than "way under half".

Still, getting >400 ft.lb out of a 9mm is impressive, but let's not confuse that with the .357 mag. And for all you ballistics junkies, that site is super cool!

The .45 can't compare either. (This is from their 2008 testing.)

With a 4" barrel, the .45 had an average muzzle velocity of 386.5. The .357 Mag had an average muzzle velocity of 610, 1.5 times the muzzle energy of the .45. The .357 Sig is a better round as well. Its average muzzle velocity was 552. Not quite the velocity of the .357 Mag, but close and still 1.4 times the muzzle velocity of the .45. The 9mm was 361.5, so just 6% less than the .45. Of course, the king of them all is the .44 Magnum with an average muzzle velocity of 658.5. (But I don't think I'd want to shoot a 4" .44 Magnum pistol!)

Another thing that's fascinating is the wide variation in muzzle velocities with the same round. For example, the .44 Magnum varies from a low of 484 for CorBon 165gr JHP to a high of 834 for Federal 240gr Hydroshock JHP. The .45 varies from a low of 338 for the Federal 230gr Hi-Shok JHP to a high of 504 for CorBon 185gr JHP+. So the brand and type of cartridge can make a big difference in muzzle velocity. (The variation between those two Federal rounds is a real head scratcher.)

About a year ago, after poring over the numbers at BBTI and reading an article by Masaad Ayoob, I decided to make my P239 in .357 Sig my EDC. It's probably the best I can do in a handgun I can handle and shoot accurately.

In case someone hasn't given it that much thought, a 9mm bullet is just 3 thousandths of an inch smaller than a .357, which I find fascinating when reading discussions of calibers and how "weak" the 9mm supposedly is.

Three exceptions to prove the rule:

Transported one of a multiple victim shooting from a drug deal, this one had been shot in the head with a 9mm. A chunk of cerbrum about the size of my fist was laying next to him. He was conscious and was back on the streets in a few months.

Call came in as a wreck (truck vs. pole). It turned out that a fairly heavy biker type had been shot center mass with a .45. Turned out it poked a hole in his right ventricle. Remained conscious the whole time though he was creeping into shock. Survived and wrote me a letter.

Call for a man down at an intersection. Had one small caliber (turned out to be a .22) entry in the right glute and was DRT. We rolled him over and his abdomen was all sorts of colors. The ME at the scene surmised it glanced off of the pelvis and piffed his innards.

SlowDave wrote:

Keith B wrote:

SQLGeek wrote:I'm still OK with my G19 and Kahr CM9 both in 9mm but I'd lie if this story didn't give me pause.

Understand that a 9mm, while the same caliber diameter of a .380 has a much stronger charge behind the bullet. In turn you will get better penetration and shock capabilities.

I personally am a fan of muzzle energy to get impact and penetration. I carry Corbon Pow'rBall ammo in my 9x19mm CCW's. When you look at the specs, it is a 110 grain bullet, but due to the +P nature of the charge, assuming you are shooting a 4" gun, it has a muzzle velocity of 1475fps and 483 ft-lbs of energy. That is more velocity and muzzle energy than a .357 magnum round. The .45 version of the Pow'rBall has a slower velocity 1225fps, but the muzzle energy is 550ft-lbs due to the 165gr bullet. If you compare it to even their best .380 round, it has a 70 grain bullet, 1100fps and only 188ft-lbs of muzzle angry, way under half of the 9mm and a third of the .45.

<snip>

Appreciate the general discussion, but don't know that I agree with your numbers. According to this source: ballistics by the inch, the 9mm in any load cannot compare to a good load out of the .357 mag. It doesn't have the round you are discussing (Corbon 110g), but other 9mm Corbon +P rounds from 90 to 125 gr have muzzle energies of 417 to 442 ft.lb out of a 4" barrel. (So close enough to your numbers.) The .357 mag on the other hand, from same 4" barrel, in Corbon bullet weights of 125 to 140 gr, have muzzle energies of 600 to 620 ft.lb. And note that there is a 110 gr Corbon .357 mag at only 403 ft.lb, but I wouldn't call that representative.

Interestingly, the same site provides 70 gr Pow'r Ball ammo from a 4" barrel in .380 as having muzzle energy of 239 ft.lb, so that's 49.5% of your 9mm number rather than "way under half".

Still, getting >400 ft.lb out of a 9mm is impressive, but let's not confuse that with the .357 mag. And for all you ballistics junkies, that site is super cool!

You need to look at Corbon's numbers, and not the numbers of the chart. Corbon doesn't post as high a numbers for their .357 and .380 Pow'rBall ammo as the chart does.