Gun-Sales Restriction Is Upheld for People Under 21

[Heartland Patriot]

I'm very sorry you gentlemen feel like that. I grew up around firearms and my favorite handgun as a kid was a Dan Wesson .357 with the interchangeable barrels. I joined the military at age 19, and got married at age 21, now married for over 20 years, and yes to the same woman. Not every kid is some dufus or gangbanger. A lot of kids, yes, but not all. Maybe it should be a case of having to exhibit the proper skill-set when you turn 18 to be able to purchase a handgun. I am 100% certain that I could have passed any firearms safety examination when I was 18 years old, and I am also certain that there are kids out there right now that could, too. I know I've taught my older daughter (now in the USAF) and my son (on delayed enlistment for the USAF) safe firearms handling for long-guns and handguns. It sure is lousy to penalize some people because others are not as good as them...isn't that one of the reasons many of us would like to see this current administration go?

I think you are misinterpreting my intent.

If some court were to try to raise the voting age back to 21, and I am old enough that I had to wait until I was 21 to vote, the uproar throughout the country would be deafening. And just imagine what would happen if they tried to make NY State go back to the 60s and move the drinking age back to 18, as it was when I was young and foolish.

My daughters learned to shoot as youngsters and shot on a league with their mother and me when they were teenagers, my son was on his high school rifle team, I have spent many hours in front of Hunter Safety and Home Firearms Safety classes specifically aimed at kids, and still have an Eddie Eagle tape stored somewhere around here. I bought my first rifle off the wall at the filling station/diner/general store when I was 12 or so, and rode home with it on the handlebars of my bicycle and would like my grandchildren and great-grandchildren to have the same rights, unto every generation.

My comment was premised around the court's obvious bias against guns, that "kids" 18 to 21 are too young and do not have the judgement to own (hand)guns and I would like to see them even try to take away the vote or driver's privileges.

My apologies, I did indeed misunderstand the intent and lumped you in with oldgringo on this. And I guess that THIS is the sort of thing where I am in agreement with libertarian principals. Its sad that we hold some folks back because of others they have been arbitrarily lumped in with...

[Jumping Frog]

My son is eighteen years old attending college.

Why is his life inherently less worth protecting than the next eighteen year-old who decided to join the service first? Why is his life inherently less worth protecting than any of you? In God's eyes, all lives have inherent value.

Remember, the government doesn't grant the right to keep and bear arms. The Bill of Rights enumerates God-given rights.

This decision is flat wrong.

[Oldgringo]

My son is eighteen years old attending college.

Why is his life inherently less worth protecting than the next eighteen year-old who decided to join the service first? Why is his life inherently less worth protecting than any of you? In God's eyes, all lives have inherent value.

Remember, the government doesn't grant the right to keep and bear arms. The Bill of Rights enumerates God-given rights.

This decision is flat wrong.

With all due respect and consideration, many 14 and 12 year olds can reach the pedals with their feet, why is the minimum driving age 16? Why is the minimum employment age 16?

[rubio]

Call me a commie, pinko liberal, etc. if you must, but I also believe there is a big difference between an 18 year old in uniform and one who is just 'hangin' with his/her buds.

You're right. The 18 year old in the military is more likely to have a gang history than an 18 year old in a 4 year college. However, I think the restrictions on constitutional rights like voting and gun ownership should only be denied because of the individual's actions and behavior, instead of lumping people together based on skin color, job, religion, etc.

[Heartland Patriot]

My son is eighteen years old attending college.

Why is his life inherently less worth protecting than the next eighteen year-old who decided to join the service first? Why is his life inherently less worth protecting than any of you? In God's eyes, all lives have inherent value.

Remember, the government doesn't grant the right to keep and bear arms. The Bill of Rights enumerates God-given rights.

This decision is flat wrong.

With all due respect and consideration, many 14 and 12 year olds can reach the pedals with their feet, why is the minimum driving age 16? Why is the minimum employment age 16?

Those are fine questions. Many years ago, kids used to drive the "farm truck" around the back roads and many kids used to work jobs, too. I'm not talking about being "forced into a coal mine with a basket and a pick" but stocking store shelves after school and working in gas stations, stuff like that. So, why aren't they still doing that? What is the problem with it?

[Oldgringo]

{snip]

Those are fine questions. Many years ago, kids used to drive the "farm truck" around the back roads and many kids used to work jobs, too. I'm not talking about being "forced into a coal mine with a basket and a pick" but stocking store shelves after school and working in gas stations, stuff like that. So, why aren't they still doing that? What is the problem with it?

Has "work" become a four letter word?

[tiviti]

My son is eighteen years old attending college.

Why is his life inherently less worth protecting than the next eighteen year-old who decided to join the service first? Why is his life inherently less worth protecting than any of you? In God's eyes, all lives have inherent value.

Remember, the government doesn't grant the right to keep and bear arms. The Bill of Rights enumerates God-given rights.

This decision is flat wrong.

With all due respect and consideration, many 14 and 12 year olds can reach the pedals with their feet, why is the minimum driving age 16? Why is the minimum employment age 16?

Those are fine questions. Many years ago, kids used to drive the "farm truck" around the back roads and many kids used to work jobs, too. I'm not talking about being "forced into a coal mine with a basket and a pick" but stocking store shelves after school and working in gas stations, stuff like that. So, why aren't they still doing that? What is the problem with it?

Agreed. I tried to get a job when I was 12, but they wanted a minimum of age 13 and my birthday wasn't until after the start date. Of course by then the positions were already filled. Ended up not getting a 'real' job until I was 16 but I have no problem with kids starting work earlier (not including child labor/exploitation of course).

[Jumping Frog]

With all due respect and consideration, many 14 and 12 year olds can reach the pedals with their feet, why is the minimum driving age 16? Why is the minimum employment age 16?

Driving and employment are not God-given rights protected by the constitution. False comparison.

[Heartland Patriot]

{snip]

Those are fine questions. Many years ago, kids used to drive the "farm truck" around the back roads and many kids used to work jobs, too. I'm not talking about being "forced into a coal mine with a basket and a pick" but stocking store shelves after school and working in gas stations, stuff like that. So, why aren't they still doing that? What is the problem with it?

Has "work" become a four letter word?

Not sure how you intended that but not to my way of thinking. Once again, what I'M getting at is that some have a greater level of maturity than others and can handle working, but are being held back from doing so simply by being in an age group...much like was said about not allowing ANY 18-21 year-olds to by handguns because SOME of them do stupid stuff.

[Jeff B.]

This is a very interesting thread to read... IMO, it's certainly not an open and shut case in either direction. Like Jlongley, I recall the days of the 18 year old drinking age in NY (I think it ended in 1980) and remember the voting age coing down to 18. What does seem contradictory is that as a society, we've taken what was a standard for "adulthood" and moved the bars of that all over the place. I've scratched my head over the 18 year old in the service who routinely trains on automatic or crew served weapons who can't legally have a beer. Likewise, I can't quite grasp the logic of allowing the 18 year old to vote, yet not allow them to purchase a handgun...

If I were to make a guesstimate on the rational for these things, they've been driven by the more "progressive" elements of our society that feel that voting or serving in the military (as long as its not their kids) are fine for the 18 year old, but those same kids can't be trusted to consume alcohol or purchase a handgun, primarily because advocacy groups of their persuasion oppose those things.

Jeff B.

[Oldgringo]

{snip]

Those are fine questions. Many years ago, kids used to drive the "farm truck" around the back roads and many kids used to work jobs, too. I'm not talking about being "forced into a coal mine with a basket and a pick" but stocking store shelves after school and working in gas stations, stuff like that. So, why aren't they still doing that? What is the problem with it?

Has "work" become a four letter word?

Not sure how you intended that but not to my way of thinking. Once again, what I'M getting at is that some have a greater level of maturity than others and can handle working, but are being held back from doing so simply by being in an age group...much like was said about not allowing ANY 18-21 year-olds to by handguns because SOME of them do stupid stuff.

Exactly!

[Jumping Frog]

If I were to make a guesstimate on the rational for these things, they've been driven by the more "progressive" elements of our society that feel that voting or serving in the military (as long as its not their kids) are fine for the 18 year old, but those same kids can't be trusted to consume alcohol or purchase a handgun, primarily because advocacy groups of their persuasion oppose those things.

It is more than that, I think.

I've lived in 12 different states, including some liberal doozies like Massachusetts and Maryland. Thus, I had the unfortunate opportunity to observe the liberal mindset up close and personal . One outcome of this liberal mind is the desire to create a nanny state by by passing laws and regulations to address every possible social condition, problem, or injustice. This need to regulate society by coercing the majority of us because of the possibility of some people making poor decisions.

The mindset that says it is illegal for a 20 year-old to purchase a handgun but legal for a 21 year-old, or legal for an 18 year-old to purchase a rifle but not a handgun is simply another symptom of the deeply flawed mindset. It is similar to the fundamental logic error that thinks it makes sense to create all these other stupid gun laws regulating the purchase process, equipment, or means of carry. Defending handgun purchase bans for 18 year-olds is no different than arguing it makes sense to have 5 day waiting periods, one handgun a month, magazine capacity limits, so-called "assault rifle" bans, or the rate at which the device can fire.

This is the same mindset that somehow thinks it makes sense that we can carry in City Hall or other public building, but somehow we can't be trusted to carry if there is a government meeting underway. Or we can carry while eating dinner in an establishment that has 48% liquor sales but heaven forbid they have 52% liquor sales!

My attitude it different. If someone commits murder, arrest them, convict them and put them in jail. If someone commits armed robbery, arrest them, convict them and put them in jail. If someone gets drunk and shoots the place up, arrest them, convict them and put them in jail. Criminalize the actual bad acts instead of criminalizing the purchase process, the possession of a mechanical tool (firearm), the length of their barrel, or the number of rounds in the magazine.

Freedom is messy. Freedom is unruly. Freedom is disorganized and diverse, has both good and bad people, and the possibility of chaos. Freedom always has people who make mistakes as well as people who make wise choices. Freedom is an imperfect society, but I'll take freedom instead of tyrants every day of the week. And make no mistake about it, the nanny state is a tyrant state.

I guess one the the messy things that comes along with freedom is that there is no requirement to be intelligent or deserving to be able to have your liberty, or liberty gets ruined for all of us.

[rwg3]

Comparing the voting age with gun purchasing or drinking age is a tough comparison. I believe the major difference between these is the potential impact of a bad decision by an individual on society as a whole. If an 18yr old, screws up while voting the impact to society is small, rarely personal and time limited. If they screw up with guns or alcohol the potential for immediate harm to others is quite real. The lowering of the age to vote came about as a reaction to the Vietnam war and was exemplified by the slogan, old enough to fight, old enough to vote! 18 yr olds still are impacted by homones and maturing brains. They often react wildly to stressful situations and stimuli. When society's rules are made it is hoped that they seek to benefit us all in some cases they have to restrict rights or privledges of soem people. The arguement is always about where to draw the line. I am comfortable with the line at 21 for guns and alcohol, even as I acknowledge that there some 18 year olds who are more mature and trustworthy then 21 year olds.

[tacticool]

Then they ought to move the voting age back to 21, not to mention driver's licenses.

Minimum 21
Maximum 65

[Heartland Patriot]

If I were to make a guesstimate on the rational for these things, they've been driven by the more "progressive" elements of our society that feel that voting or serving in the military (as long as its not their kids) are fine for the 18 year old, but those same kids can't be trusted to consume alcohol or purchase a handgun, primarily because advocacy groups of their persuasion oppose those things.

It is more than that, I think.

I've lived in 12 different states, including some liberal doozies like Massachusetts and Maryland. Thus, I had the unfortunate opportunity to observe the liberal mindset up close and personal . One outcome of this liberal mind is the desire to create a nanny state by by passing laws and regulations to address every possible social condition, problem, or injustice. This need to regulate society by coercing the majority of us because of the possibility of some people making poor decisions.

The mindset that says it is illegal for a 20 year-old to purchase a handgun but legal for a 21 year-old, or legal for an 18 year-old to purchase a rifle but not a handgun is simply another symptom of the deeply flawed mindset. It is similar to the fundamental logic error that thinks it makes sense to create all these other stupid gun laws regulating the purchase process, equipment, or means of carry. Defending handgun purchase bans for 18 year-olds is no different than arguing it makes sense to have 5 day waiting periods, one handgun a month, magazine capacity limits, so-called "assault rifle" bans, or the rate at which the device can fire.

This is the same mindset that somehow thinks it makes sense that we can carry in City Hall or other public building, but somehow we can't be trusted to carry if there is a government meeting underway. Or we can carry while eating dinner in an establishment that has 48% liquor sales but heaven forbid they have 52% liquor sales!

My attitude it different. If someone commits murder, arrest them, convict them and put them in jail. If someone commits armed robbery, arrest them, convict them and put them in jail. If someone gets drunk and shoots the place up, arrest them, convict them and put them in jail. Criminalize the actual bad acts instead of criminalizing the purchase process, the possession of a mechanical tool (firearm), the length of their barrel, or the number of rounds in the magazine.

Freedom is messy. Freedom is unruly. Freedom is disorganized and diverse, has both good and bad people, and the possibility of chaos. Freedom always has people who make mistakes as well as people who make wise choices. Freedom is an imperfect society, but I'll take freedom instead of tyrants every day of the week. And make no mistake about it, the nanny state is a tyrant state.

I guess one the the messy things that comes along with freedom is that there is no requirement to be intelligent or deserving to be able to have your liberty, or liberty gets ruined for all of us.

Very well said, Jumping Frog, especially what I colored in red. 100%.