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The chamber is empty. In the tube are 7 rounds of 2 3/4" #4 buckshot. On the sidesaddle are six 2 3/4" slugs.

MoJo wrote:

Beiruty wrote:is $1.2/rd a fair price, or let us say competitive for good self-defense rd for a shot gun?

A buck twenty is pretty high. If you plan to shoot enough to really know what your gun will do. The 15 packs of Winchester or Remington 2/0 buck at Wallyworld is about 60 cents a shot. Try different brands until you find the one that patterns the tightest and go with that.

You don't need to waste the money....these guys already did it: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot56.htm

They used #1, but I can tell you that I've used the 00 and gotten the same results.

When I kept the shotty for defense, #4 buckshot. Less penetration of walls, sufficient penetration in bad guys.

Now, I use an AR. Generally less penetration in walls. Less recoil, easier aiming, and adjustable stock makes it wife AND hubby friendly. It's also the platform that I'm most proficient with.

After perusing a number of sources, including http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm "Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition", which I found after looking at http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defen ... /index.htm, I acquired a supply of Federal Tactical Buckshot. The LE132-1B round is a low-recoil load that uses Fed's FliteControl wads filled with #1 Buck. GT Distributors in Austin had them for $2.99 per 5-pack. To me, there is no better choice, although I of course remain open to further enlightenment on this.

I took my shotgun and the ammo out to the range earlier last year.

The test was on a fairly tightly controlled range. I couldn't just do anything I wanted. Basically, I could put up a target, run it out to the distance I wanted, blast away, then change targets. I didn't even have the targets I would have preferred, some IDPA style or similar. These will have to do!

I set out to fire 3 rounds at each distance, 5, 10, 15 and 20 yards. In the confusion, I had what I thought was 5 yards, which I realized was more like 7 yards, so did the 5 yard one again, at 5 yards, then on from there. The 20 yard target only got two shots, as I ran out of ammo.

I haven't fired a shotgun in years, mostly the result of various infirmities that have plagued me the last few years. I'm still not up to normal but am back getting more active as time goes on, getting in shape for the next infirmity! Anyway, one thing I noticed right away is that few shots hit where I thought they would..... close but not accurate, really. I really don't have any way to sight this shotgun which has a "glow in the dark" fiber optic on the business end only. That will just take some getting used to.

Anyway, here is the 5 yard target:



I think I can assume that this guy will not be a threat anymore!

The 7 yard target (actually the first one I shot):



Same result, I think.

The 10 yard target:



The third round hit down just at the bottom of the target. Even at this distance there is not much pattern, just a bit less organized.

The 15 yard target:



This is the first distance where you can see pellets separating from the group.

The 20 yard target:



Here again there are some pellets striking the target away from the main group, but not much. Of course, it is impossible to tell if there were pellets that spread out and missed the target completely. Still, I don't think you want to be on the business end of this shotgun at any distance like this.

So far, so good. I need some practice to build accuracy. It was fun hitting the range. I really like this shotgun, a Winchester 1300 Defender, light, simple, easy to operate.

One of the worries in my present residence is penetration of walls. The homes are lightly constructed, appropriate for our mild weather, and are 10 feet apart. From what I can tell from Box 'o Truth and other references, all of these pellets are likely to penetrate the exterior walls, and go wherever they have a mind to go.

Thanks jallen, Mine also is the Federal "Tactical" not "Premium" buckshot

Also get mine at GT Distributors for $2.99/5-pack

VM177, thanks for the heads up on the Hornady TAP buckshot - good to know its available at Academy if I need it.

Those of you running the basic Remington/Winchester "cheap" buckshot from Academy/Wal Mart etc, I highly recommend you pattern this with YOUR GUN at whatever distance you're likely to use it for self defense ... It truly opens up and spreads way too wide at 15 yards (distance from my bedroom hallway to front door) for my comfort ... easy to see one or two pellets flying past intended target.

MoJo wrote:Topbuilder, you should rethink the birdshot. Birdshot is for bird hunting. Would you put a rubber bullet as your first round in a handgun? .... A determined bad guy or one on drugs will not be deterred by sounds or birdshot.

7 1/2 or 8 is plenty effective enough for home defense. I'd like to post a link, but I can't get to it here at work. I'll edit or add a comment later tonight. Jeff Quinn at Gunblast has a nice video showing the effectiveness of birdshot. He does a simulation where he shoots through clothing (I think he uses onion sack and denim?), a rack of ribs and into a pork shoulder to simulate human tissue. It is quite a bit more impressive than you'd think. Take a look. I'll post the link later if somebody doesn't beat me to it.

AndyC wrote:

JALLEN wrote:One of the worries in my present residence is penetration of walls. The homes are lightly constructed, appropriate for our mild weather, and are 10 feet apart. From what I can tell from Box 'o Truth and other references, all of these pellets are likely to penetrate the exterior walls, and go wherever they have a mind to go.

Great report, thanks.

You might consider a slightly smaller shot-size and try those; I've always been partial to #4 Buckshot for home defense, backed up with a few slugs on-hand just in case.

The laws of physics are certainly perverse. It seems like the choices are either powerful rounds that certainly will stop a BG but will likely penetrate too much, or not so powerful rounds that don't penetrate as much but are not as likely to stop a BG.

A lot depends on the BG, what (s)he is wearing, the distance, shot placement, etc. to further confound the problem. You can't depend on those idiots to turn and flee at the sound of racking the gun like normal sensible people would. What else can you do?

I've got the federal low recoil 00 buck. Mostly so its a tad easier for my small wife to use the gun.
Chamber is empty, chamber has a locking device in it, keys are in the bedside quickaccess safe. This was the only way my wife would allow the shotgun to be near the bed and not locked in a safe.

xb12s wrote:

MoJo wrote:Topbuilder, you should rethink the birdshot. Birdshot is for bird hunting. Would you put a rubber bullet as your first round in a handgun? .... A determined bad guy or one on drugs will not be deterred by sounds or birdshot.

7 1/2 or 8 is plenty effective enough for home defense. I'd like to post a link, but I can't get to it here at work. I'll edit or add a comment later tonight. Jeff Quinn at Gunblast has a nice video showing the effectiveness of birdshot. He does a simulation where he shoots through clothing (I think he uses onion sack and denim?), a rack of ribs and into a pork shoulder to simulate human tissue. It is quite a bit more impressive than you'd think. Take a look. I'll post the link later if somebody doesn't beat me to it.

http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=176" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

xb12s wrote:

MoJo wrote:Topbuilder, you should rethink the birdshot. Birdshot is for bird hunting. Would you put a rubber bullet as your first round in a handgun? .... A determined bad guy or one on drugs will not be deterred by sounds or birdshot.

7 1/2 or 8 is plenty effective enough for home defense. I'd like to post a link, but I can't get to it here at work. I'll edit or add a comment later tonight. Jeff Quinn at Gunblast has a nice video showing the effectiveness of birdshot. He does a simulation where he shoots through clothing (I think he uses onion sack and denim?), a rack of ribs and into a pork shoulder to simulate human tissue. It is quite a bit more impressive than you'd think. Take a look. I'll post the link later if somebody doesn't beat me to it.

It's a myth. You use birdshot for self-defense and you're likely to end up in a pine box.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defen ... /index.htm

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu91.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

1. Birdshot is a good self defense load.

This is false for several reasons. The main reason is that no birdshot load will reach the required 12 inches of penetration needed for STOPPING a bad guy from whatever he is doing to threaten your life. Birdshot makes a very nasty, yet shallow wound, and will not reach the vital organs or CNS.

"Might" birdshot work? Sure. But why depend on "might" when "better" is available.

Use birdshot for little birds. Use buckshot for bad guys.

2. Buckshot penetrates too much and will go through walls in my home.

Sure it will. Any load that will STOP a bad guy, will also penetrate several interior walls, as I proved here: Rifles, Shotguns, and Walls

Until someone invents a phaser, like on Star Trek, any load that will STOP a bad guy will also penetrate several walls.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

I'll just add this.....it comes down to basic physics....the smaller and lighter the shot the less penetration, period. For an extreme demonstration, shoot some cans and bottles with some #8 .410 shells......you'll get broken bottles and holes in cans. Then try some snake shot in a hand gun or rifle, like a .22. You can put the muzzle right up against the can or bottle: it won't break the glass, and it barely dents a typical soup can. A 22 bullet will penetrate a can and break bottles from a good distance. Little pellets don't have the same energy as bigger pellets. Momentum = mass x velocity. Same or nearly the same velocity, smaller pellet, equals less momentum. Or, 1/8 th the mass, 1/8 the momentum, and each little pellet has to penetrate under its own momentum, hence, smaller pellet, less penetration.

AndyC wrote: There is no perfect answer, unfortunately - it's always a rock and a hard place. Having seen the miserable results of under-penetration, though, I'm reluctantly erring on the side of over-penetration.

That's the problem. I want to stop the BG's but not endanger my neighbors "downrange." Houses are 10 feet apart on these tiny lots, plaster and wood frame for the most part, very lightly built. Some may not even have insulation in the exterior walls.

JALLEN wrote:I need some practice to build accuracy.

IIRC, the bead sights on shotguns are typically zeroed in for 100 yards from factory. Try adjusting your aim lower for shorter distances.