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Re: Intersting Article "Firearm Stopping Power"
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:03 pm
by SQLGeek
K.Mooneyham wrote:gthaustex wrote:Any FMJ ammo is generally going to cause less damage and have more penetration than JHP ammo. The stories from those vets don't surprise me.
I remember stories about our guys fighting in Somalia back in the early 90s. Many of the bad guys there didn't get a lot to eat, and the GIs called them "skinnies". The 5.56mm ball ammo tended to zip right through them if it didn't contact bone. Thus they had a lot of little holes in them and would keep coming even though they very possibly died later from blood loss. There are just so many variables.
Wasn't the other problem with that the M855 ammo that they were using had a tendency to go through instead of tumble?
Re: Intersting Article "Firearm Stopping Power"
Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:33 am
by w squared
Disclaimer: Your ops are way blacker than mine, and I wasn't there...so please understand that I'm just explaining the limited understanding that I've picked up while reading about the issue. I have (thankfully) never needed to shoot another human being.
Yes, SQLgeek, I believe that was the problem. Just like 9mm FMJ, the 5.56 rounds being used in Somalia were poking small holes without causing a whole lot of damage. It seems that a big part of the problem was velocity. 5.56mm FMJ rounds are effective because when they enter a body, they yaw sideways and tend to break apart at the cannelure - like this:
This fragmentation seems to happen reliably if the round is moving at over 3000FPS when it impacts. Under 3000 FPS - it doesn't happen reliably. Some have suggested that the rounds failed to fragment Mogadishu for two reasons:
#1. The weight of the bullets being fired had increased since the last time that American troops had need to shoot in anger - and had a steel penetrator, because it had been designed to be used against Warsaw Pact soldiers that were wearing body armor.
#2. The length of the barrels on some of the rifles in use had decreased (14.5" carbine barrels instead of 20" rifle barrels), meaning less powder burn and less muzzle velocity.
Re: Intersting Article "Firearm Stopping Power"
Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:25 am
by K.Mooneyham
w squared wrote:Disclaimer: Your ops are way blacker than mine, and I wasn't there...so please understand that I'm just explaining the limited understanding that I've picked up while reading about the issue. I have (thankfully) never needed to shoot another human being.
Yes, SQLgeek, I believe that was the problem. Just like 9mm FMJ, the 5.56 rounds being used in Somalia were poking small holes without causing a whole lot of damage. It seems that a big part of the problem was velocity. 5.56mm FMJ rounds are effective because when they enter a body, they yaw sideways and tend to break apart at the cannelure - like this:
[
Image ]
This fragmentation seems to happen reliably if the round is moving at over 3000FPS when it impacts. Under 3000 FPS - it doesn't happen reliably. Some have suggested that the rounds failed to fragment Mogadishu for two reasons:
#1. The weight of the bullets being fired had increased since the last time that American troops had need to shoot in anger - and had a steel penetrator, because it had been designed to be used against Warsaw Pact soldiers that were wearing body armor.
#2. The length of the barrels on some of the rifles in use had decreased (14.5" carbine barrels instead of 20" rifle barrels), meaning less powder burn and less muzzle velocity.
I have no "black ops". I do not play "Black Ops". I am not an expert nor do I claim to be an expert. If I gave the appearance of claiming to be an expert, please accept my apologies. All the information you posted, I too have read, and I accept such information as valid. What I wrote was simply what I read, my further apologies for not being able to cite a source, it has been some time ago. However, if you notice the penetration depth before anything begins to happen, its about 12 inches with M193 (the 55 grain older design). Us "Westerners" have plenty of meat on our bones in the form of muscle and fat. We eat well, and some work out, adding to it. Those folks in Somalia didn't eat well and probably still don't. And while I have not measured a lot of Somalis for chest thickness, I'd imagine, on average, its less than ours. So keeping that in mind, coupled with the information you posted, it would seem to add credibility to the reports of rounds "zipping through" those folks.
Re: Intersting Article "Firearm Stopping Power"
Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:14 pm
by w squared
K.Mooneyham wrote:
I have no "black ops". I do not play "Black Ops". I am not an expert nor do I claim to be an expert. If I gave the appearance of claiming to be an expert, please accept my apologies. All the information you posted, I too have read, and I accept such information as valid. What I wrote was simply what I read, my further apologies for not being able to cite a source, it has been some time ago.
I think that I expressed myself poorly. My disclaimer wasn't "aimed" ay you, or anyone else that has posted in this thread - it was meant to be a somewhat tongue in cheek indication that while I have done a bit of reading on the topic, I am neither a subject matter expert, nor prepared to cite all of the data with specific references. I think that the the only apology needed is from me - for failing to choose my words in a way that accurately conveyed my desired tone.
It seems logical to me that the combination of limited body mass of the targets, design of ammunition, and decreased muzzle velocity would have resulted in very poor terminal performance.
I think that all of this is now really a historical debate anyways...the new M855a1 rounds seems to have finally provided those who go in harm's way with the right tool for the job - and we as civilians have always had workable choices (even without going to some of the exotic all-copper designs that are now available).
Re: Intersting Article "Firearm Stopping Power"
Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:25 pm
by K.Mooneyham
w squared wrote:K.Mooneyham wrote:
I have no "black ops". I do not play "Black Ops". I am not an expert nor do I claim to be an expert. If I gave the appearance of claiming to be an expert, please accept my apologies. All the information you posted, I too have read, and I accept such information as valid. What I wrote was simply what I read, my further apologies for not being able to cite a source, it has been some time ago.
I think that I expressed myself poorly. My disclaimer wasn't "aimed" ay you, or anyone else that has posted in this thread - it was meant to be a somewhat tongue in cheek indication that while I have done a bit of reading on the topic, I am neither a subject matter expert, nor prepared to cite all of the data with specific references. I think that the the only apology needed is from me - for failing to choose my words in a way that accurately conveyed my desired tone.
It seems logical to me that the combination of limited body mass of the targets, design of ammunition, and decreased muzzle velocity would have resulted in very poor terminal performance.
I think that all of this is now really a historical debate anyways...the new M855a1 rounds seems to have finally provided those who go in harm's way with the right tool for the job - and we as civilians have always had workable choices (even without going to some of the exotic all-copper designs that are now available).
No offense taken. I mostly read military history, generally WWII or Vietnam War related material. Sometimes I type a bit too much about something I've read, and I might give a false impression about knowing more than a I really do, and that's my fault.
Re: Intersting Article "Firearm Stopping Power"
Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:09 am
by rbwhatever1
K.Mooneyham wrote:gthaustex wrote:Any FMJ ammo is generally going to cause less damage and have more penetration than JHP ammo. The stories from those vets don't surprise me.
I remember stories about our guys fighting in Somalia back in the early 90s. Many of the bad guys there didn't get a lot to eat, and the GIs called them "skinnies". The 5.56mm ball ammo tended to zip right through them if it didn't contact bone. Thus they had a lot of little holes in them and would keep coming even though they very possibly died later from blood loss. There are just so many variables.
Those skinnies in Somalia were hopped up on khat. They would start chewing on that stuff around noon and by 3PM they were ready for a fight. I would say many of them may not have known they were hit depending on what caliber hit them and where. Back to the subject...We used to carry 1911's in the first half of my career. The second half brought in the 9mm Baretta. The Marine Corps changed the Combat Pistol Course from draw & fire one round at a pop up target and re-holster with the 45, to draw and fire 2 rounds with the 9mm and re-holster. Lot's of Marines were not happy with this sidearm change for NATO reasons....I imagine all those 9mm Beretta's will be hitting the open market in a few years as the Marine's re-outfit armories back to the 1911 model.
Re: Intersting Article "Firearm Stopping Power"
Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:36 pm
by remington79
From what I've been reading the Army is using the M855A1. My friend was attached to an Army unit last year and he said he was only able to get about 2 mags of it. He had to scrounge ammo and had some mags loaded mostly with tracer. Where he was in AFG he said cleaning supplies were hard to get so I sent him some patches and SLP 2000 EWL.
The Marines are going to a 62 grain OTM round and SOCOM have in use a 77 grain round. All these rounds are suppose to be barrier blind and work better on soft targets. Remember the M855 was made for a war with the Soviets who had armor and helmets. We don't see much of that anymore.
Re: Intersting Article "Firearm Stopping Power"
Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:00 pm
by Moby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8YI68-JA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Intersting Article "Firearm Stopping Power"
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:47 pm
by Dadtodabone
K.Mooneyham wrote:w squared wrote:Disclaimer: Your ops are way blacker than mine, and I wasn't there...so please understand that I'm just explaining the limited understanding that I've picked up while reading about the issue. I have (thankfully) never needed to shoot another human being.
Yes, SQLgeek, I believe that was the problem. Just like 9mm FMJ, the 5.56 rounds being used in Somalia were poking small holes without causing a whole lot of damage. It seems that a big part of the problem was velocity. 5.56mm FMJ rounds are effective because when they enter a body, they yaw sideways and tend to break apart at the cannelure - like this:
[
Image ]
This fragmentation seems to happen reliably if the round is moving at over 3000FPS when it impacts. Under 3000 FPS - it doesn't happen reliably. Some have suggested that the rounds failed to fragment Mogadishu for two reasons:
#1. The weight of the bullets being fired had increased since the last time that American troops had need to shoot in anger - and had a steel penetrator, because it had been designed to be used against Warsaw Pact soldiers that were wearing body armor.
#2. The length of the barrels on some of the rifles in use had decreased (14.5" carbine barrels instead of 20" rifle barrels), meaning less powder burn and less muzzle velocity.
I have no "black ops". I do not play "Black Ops". I am not an expert nor do I claim to be an expert. If I gave the appearance of claiming to be an expert, please accept my apologies. All the information you posted, I too have read, and I accept such information as valid. What I wrote was simply what I read, my further apologies for not being able to cite a source, it has been some time ago.
However, if you notice the penetration depth before anything begins to happen, its about 12 inches with M193 (the 55 grain older design). Us "Westerners" have plenty of meat on our bones in the form of muscle and fat. We eat well, and some work out, adding to it. Those folks in Somalia didn't eat well and probably still don't. And while I have not measured a lot of Somalis for chest thickness, I'd imagine, on average, its less than ours. So keeping that in mind, coupled with the information you posted, it would seem to add credibility to the reports of rounds "zipping through" those folks.
The illustration of the wound cavity and fragmentation characteristics is in Centimeters not Inches. There are 2.54 cm per inch. So the permanent cavity and major fragmentation begin at 4.72 inches, not 12 inches. M193 will reliably fragment at velocities as low as 2600 fps and 5.56 nato fired from barrels as short as 16 inches easily achieves initial velocities over 3000 fps and will still be in the 2600 fps range at 125 meters. Here's an independent study by B&T Ammo Labs,
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ballis ... Test1.html
M855 on the other hand has limited fragmentation effects even at 3100 fps and yaw, which induces fragmentation, won't reliably begin until around 7-10 inches of penetration.
M193 is an excellent self defense round that exhibits many of the characteristics the top ammo manufacturers advertise for their ammo at 3 to 4 times the cost.
Re: Intersting Article "Firearm Stopping Power"
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:09 pm
by rbwhatever1
Re: Intersting Article "Firearm Stopping Power"
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:42 pm
by fickman
This comparison is worthless without analyzing the stopping power of racking a pump action 12 gauge.
Re: Intersting Article "Firearm Stopping Power"
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:14 pm
by Jason K
fickman wrote:This comparison is worthless without analyzing the stopping power of racking a pump action 12 gauge.
....or firing a double-barrel shotgun from the balcony....
Re: Intersting Article "Firearm Stopping Power"
Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:50 am
by AdioSS
http://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/ ... n-the-job/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This story seems relevant to this thread.
Re: Intersting Article "Firearm Stopping Power"
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:49 pm
by remington79
....or firing a double-barrel shotgun from the balcony....
[/quote]
What if I don't have a balcony?
Re: Intersting Article "Firearm Stopping Power"
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:51 pm
by fickman
remington79 wrote:....or firing a double-barrel shotgun from the balcony....
What if I don't have a balcony?
Then you're supposed to fire blindly through the door.
