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So you are saying that just because I FEEL my life is in danger, that is not enough. That is the same as fearing for my life, is it not

Gentlemen,
Lets get this back on the personal defense stories & stop the arguing.
This could be a good thread. Lets dont have to lock it.

Target1911 wrote:So you are saying that just because I FEEL my life is in danger, that is not enough. That is the same as fearing for my life, is it not

It does not matter if it is the same. Fearing for your life is not enough.

If the neighborhood crazy bad dude, who you know has a violent past, assaults people regularly, etc, gets mad at you today and says he is going to kill you tomorrow, you would be in fear of your life, but that is NOT justification to shoot him right now, is it?

You HAVE to be protecting yourself his immediate use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force against, or to prevent the imminent commission of one of the listed crimes.

Just "fearing" for your life, or "feel" so is not enough. In fact, your belief must be reasonable that you immediately need to use deadly force.

Feelings and fear are not enough.

If I point a gun at you and demand your truck, you will most likely be in fear of your life, and feel in danger, of course. But that is NOT your legal justification. Your justification is that your reasonably believed it was immediately necessary to protect yourself against my use or attempted use of unlawful deadly against you; or to protect yourself against my imminent commission of Aggravated Robbery against you.

The words "reasonable, immediately necessary, imminent commission, unlawful use, etc, all are important to have for your legal justification.

longtooth wrote:Gentlemen,
Lets get this back on the personal defense stories & stop the arguing.
This could be a good thread. Lets dont have to lock it.

We are not arguing, we are discussing the lawful use of deadly force, perceptions on that law, and justifications.

Have we gotten so sensitive that a thread that has disagreement is frowned upon? How boring if we all post in every thread, "yeah, I agree".

SC1903A3 wrote:Can't we all just get along.

Sorry,

Not trying to start anything. The problem with posts is this same as it is with email. The "tone" can be perceived incorrectly. I just feel that you should be careful what you put in words for everyone to see regardless of who agrees and who doesn't. This site is here to share information and foster good stewardship, right? (no tone intended). Let's just think about what might happen if some enterprising reporter trying to make a name for themself read some of the posts and they wound up on the 6 o'clock news. Would that help the cause at all? Probably not, they would have a field day...

I'm not one of the old veterans here bit I respect those who are and their opinions. If we are here to share ideas then we should be able to do that as adults, correct? There are people on the forum who I have little doubt would handle themselves perfectly, and represent the CHL community well if forced to draw their weapon. (which is what this post is all about). There are others who may act too impulsively. That being said feeling threatened is relative and everybody has their own personal tolerance level. But use of force, especially deadly force, should ALWAYS be the last resort. Project strength to avoid confrontation... not exactly as stated in The Art of War... but close enough.

My rant is over... I certainly did not mean to offend anyone. I am a friendly guy, really!

We now return to our regularly scheduled program.


PB, tell your story again... I haven't read it.


Edited because I can't type.

ScubaSigGuy wrote: PB, tell your story again... I haven't read it.

aaaaaaaaallllll right. everyone else who has read this the other forty seven thousand times it's posted can disregard.

StarDate February '06
anyway. So, I have this associate of mine named The Bass Monster. Now that's Bass, as in Treble and Bass, not Bass Pro Shop. He is known as The Bass Monster, well, because he plays Bass Guitar better than anyone in DallasFt Worth, IMO. I digress. I've known TBM for about 6 years, and consider him one of my goodest friends. yes, I said goodest.
Well TBM has a girlfriend, who at the time was, as we say, with child. Her name is Preggo. She and TBM have decided, in lieu of their decision to conceive, that they should move in together. *shudder* And, of course, they ask for my help, to which I agree.
Now at the time, I was working a 10hr, 4on-3off schedule, and this just happened to fall on my Thursday, before a 3-day weekend, so I figure if things run a little late, no prollem.
I meet TBM at his former residence, to which we load up every last thing he owns, and bookit. We arrive at his future abode, and determine that more hands are required, as we have not taken into account El Preggo's vast array of Worldly Possesions. coming Directly is TBM's associate FrontMan, who is known as such because he is the FrontMan for a popular DFW band, along with FrontMan's little lady. She gets no name. just kidding. I'll call her.... hmmm, BabyMama.
So. We all begin unloading the moving van full of stuff, while piecing together such things as the bed, and TV stand, and what-not. Took a few hours, and being as we didn't start until everyone was off from their respective Day Jobs, it was getting a bit late, about 10pm, well past ya'll's bed time
As we are unloading the last of the Worldly Possesions, we notice a small group of, shall we say, GangBangers, collecting in the parking lot. Being as we are in the Heart of the MetroPlex, I noted their presence, but simply carried on in my tasks. I remember distinctly, "The Big Guy," was wearing a long white T-Shirt, and he stopped, and blew his nose on the inside of his T-Shirt. yeah, I almost ralphed, too. I figured this guy was on coke, as it tends to make your nose run, what with the sniffing of a noxious substance up the pipe. Anyway, there's another of the aforementioned GB's standing near the walkway to The Happy Couple's new apartment, and I remember him wearing a red shirt and matching baseball cap. As I passed him, I said, "Hey man, how's it goin'?" to which he responded with an icy glare. you know, didn't want to humanize his future victims.
I digress. So there we are, all 5 of us, finally done unloading, placing, putting together, and blah bitty blah. so now we're just chillin' in the new apartment, and it's gettin' on around 1030 in the P.M., and I decide, you know fellas, been at work all day, I'ma break out. So, I say my adios, to which TBM says, "Thanks, brother, I'll catch you later." I responded with a witty, "Speaking of brothers, I hope there aren't any out there waiting on me." I'm serious. I said that, moments before what was about to take place. I was kidding, and was only trying to make, yet another bad joke.
Well, I open the front door of the apt, and standing there, is a new GB, with the small collection of other GB's right behind him, about 5 total.
The first thought in my head, and if I'm lyin', I'm dyin', is, "Crap. I hope these guys didn't hear what I just said, cause I'm really not racist and wouldn't want to offend them."
seriously, that was the first thing in my head. funny, huh?
anyway, the lead ScumBag says to me, "C'mon step out here." and begins to raise, what I later determined to be a small .380, KelTec Pistol at me. I backpeddled, and fortunately was still in the doorway, so I was able to dodge behind the front door. Head ScumBag dives forward to prevent me from closing the door, but I manage to get it almost all the way shut, just not completely. Now, I'm leaning against this door, with my back to the door, just ah givin' it all my 230lb frame will give it to keep this thing shut. I'm standing on a tile floor, and my feet are slip slidin' as I'm pressing against the door, what with a few guys pushing from the other side. I have no idea exactly how many people were on the other side of that door. I feel very confidant that there was more than one, but I didn't hang around to count.
At this time, I'm dead-heated in a tug of war for possesion of the door, for what felt like forever. In all actuality, it was probably a minute, but I for some reason could not muster the voice to call for help from my friends, who were 10 feet away, in the next room. funny, huh?
I finally muster up the nerve to seek out TBM's name, and he comes in to the living room, see's me struggling at the door, exclaims an expletive and retreats back in the bedroom to tell the ladies to get down. FrontMan comes into the room and at a dead run shoulder blocks the door. We later learned that because of the force of our collective energy, we bent the door! So there we are, two guys pushing on the door, TBM taking care of the ladies, when I notice that ScumBag numero uno has his leg in the door, and this is what is preventing us from closing the door.
TBM comes back into the living room, while the ladies dial 911, and I tell TBM to "Kick his leg!!!!" TBM complies with a solid front kick to ScumBag's ankle, to which ScumBag decides he's done foolin' around.
He fires off a round through the door, and continues struggling with the door. We later interpretted that the round went through the door, about a foot over my head (remember I'm squatted down, with my back to the door), and imbedded itself in the wall across the room. there was a big black handprint on our side of the door, just below the bullet hole, from where Frontman's dirty hand had been. Dude came 1cm away from losing a finger!
At this point, TBM plants another thunderous kick to Scumbag's leg, to which the GB's hit the door one final time. This dislodges ScumBag's leg from the door/frame vice, and in the moment the door is open a little ways, ScumBag sticks his hand in the doorway, and fires off another round directly in the apt.
I am here to tell ya, a .380 fired off in yer apt living room is loud enough to make yer ears ring for two solid days. I have seen Metallica, Iron Maiden, Motley Crue, and various other hard rock/heavy metal bands live and in concert, and my ears were done ringing the day after a good show.
Anyway, the final gunshot is about a foot away from TBM and goes directly into the fireplace, harmlessly away from all living things.
At this point the GB's hauled posterior, and were gone. FrontMan and I get the door close, finally, and continue to secure it for a short time. I checked the peephole for combatants, and seeing the coast was clear, we opened the door, reshut it and then threw the deadbolt. You see, when we got the door closed that last time, the deadbolt was out, and kept the door from fully shutting. Dang thing was prolly like that the whole time, preventing me from ever getting the door shut, despite all my persistance.
anyway, to make a long story long, TheFuzz showed, locked and loaded, cleared the scene, took fingerprints, collected two shell casings (how I learned it was a .380), and even stood guard while we turned right around and moved The Happy couple's Worldly Possesions back out of the apt.
A pregnant lady saying emphatically, "I AM NOT STAYING HERE." is quite persuasive!
Anyway, nothing but gratitude and respect for the DPD, in their role in the whole ordeal.
We got everything loaded back out, and THC stayed with TheFrontMan and the BabyMama until a new domicile could be attained.

Why, Mr Jelly, did you not bust a cap in them foo's? Well, My only handgun at that time was my Beretta 92 I had been given the previous year's Christmas as a range gun, to learn how to shoot. I didn't have a CHL, and certainly didn't qualify as travelling.
After smoking a full pack of cigarettes, I went home from the ordeal, most importantly alive. But WE, as a team, had held off a pack of wild animals, kept them from looting us, and I have no doubt that if they had gotten in to the apt, they would have killed us, and raped the women.
the next day I bought a S&W Sigma series 9VE from a pawn shop, and signed up for a CHL class. I was done playin' games, folks.

and that's basically the end of my story, hope is wasn't too boring and long winded!!!!
Q's and critiques I will gleefully answer.

I thought I was rembering this story.
Research makes it sound like one Casselthief told.
Was you with him?

papabear wrote:I thought I was rembering this story.
Research makes it sound like one Casselthief told.
Was you with him?

oops again pbandjelly

papabear wrote:I thought I was rembering this story.
Research makes it sound like one Casselthief told.
Was you with him?

You could say, that I know him VERY well!

I read way more than I say.
Yall are laughing over this.
Did I do something wrong?

That's crazy. Definitely a good motivator to get your CHL. I am glad that you didn't go the other way... to the Dark Side.

It's amazing and very fortuante that nobody was hurt.

yeah, I ended up relaying that story to our CHL class. we were on break, and a few folks were asking around why we were getting a CHL.
the funny thing is, I was already planning on getting a CHL, just wanted to expidite things after that whole debacle!

I have a question maybe some of our LawEnforcement folks can answer.
Is there any way to get a hold of the Police Report. I'd love to have a copy of that, maybe a nice way to help inform people of what can happen, to anyone, at anyplace, basically at anytime.

Is there any way to get a hold of the Police Report. I'd love to have a copy of that, maybe a nice way to help inform people of what can happen, to anyone, at anyplace, basically at anytime.

Not a problem - go to Police Headquarters (1500 S. Lamar) enter the lobby area, turn left and head over to the Records window.

I would call first so that you can verify that it's ready. You (or someone there with you that night) should have been given a small piece of paper with a Service Number on it. Provide that number and it should speed things up. If you don't have that number give them the date, time, and location of the offense, along with your name (which should be in the report).

By the way, where abouts in Dallas did this happen? Also, tell your friends not to move into apartments where the "lions are circling the prey" as they're getting settled in. They were scoping out all of your friends stuff as you were unloading it. If they wouldn't have jacked with you that evening that would have probably busted into the apartment the next day and ripped everything off - happens all the time.

In my humble opinion, if you had a gun and this fool was shooting at you and your friends through the door, you should of shot him - CHL or not. If this happened as you said it did (not that I don't believe you) you should of had no problem in articulating to the responding officers in such a manner that you wouldn't have had any problems. They would have taken your gun (would have done the same for a CHL holder OR a LEO that was involved in the shooting) and it might have been in the property room for awhile. Other than that you should of had no legal problems with the police. Unless he's been arrested, and is in jail, you can bet that he and his gang are still out there preying on others.

Remember though, even though the police might not have done anything, as a rule of thumb this would have been presented to the Grand Jury as a referral. Again, probably not much to have worried about there. In fact, if those folks issued medals for cleaning up the neighborhood they would have probably given you one. One very good reason for getting a CHL is that the citizens that review these type of incidents would be informed that you were "licensed" by the state to carry a handgun. That way there is no need for the Detective or prosecutor that would be presenting your case to the GJ to have to get into all the legal ramifications as to how you were justified by such and such chapter of the Penal Code.

Police officers (most of them) would understand those things but sometimes citizens on the GJ need more black and white choices - especially if it's a new GJ. By the time a GJ's term is set to expire, the members have been exposed to so much violence and crime that they are fed up with criminals as a whole and are pretty much ready to throw them under the jail - at least in Dallas County they are. Bexar County and Harris County are probably the same way.

I can't tell anyone what to do - only they can decide if they're prepared to use deadly force to protect themselves or others. However, I get asked that question a lot after we respond to incidents like yours. I always tell people what I would do and if they reply that they're going to get a gun I tell them to get trained to use it or don't waste their time getting one.

It's interesting how situations like you went though change people. I'm not just talking about how they view things, but how they sometimes change the core values of their life, along with the path they then chose to take. In your case you decided to get your CHL. Others will just become more aware of their surroundings so as not to be an easy victim. My wife was mugged and robbed during her sophomore year in college and decided then and there that was never going to happen to her again. She's been a police officer for over 20 years now and when someone asks her why she chose this calling she will relate to them about that one specific incident.

I'm glad that you and your friends were able to escape without injury. Your story serves as a good reminder to everyone that THEY need to be responsible for their own protection - not LE. Share it when it's appropriate.

Stay safe.

Thanks, man, I appreciate the info. I don't have the little ticket thingy anymore, because I threw it away as kind of a symbol of moving on.
really, I'm not a hippy! ahaha
anyway, you're exactly right about incidents like this changing people.
for months on end after the incident I thought about it every flippin' day.
a year later, I still think about it every now and again. my heart gets a little jumpy, but that's about it. no more cold sweats, sleeplessness, that kind of stuff. what a load of coal that period of time was!
oh, yeah, the cops flat out told us that if we'da shot those guys, they would have personally gave us a medal!
only reason I didn't have my gun, is I had more of a fear of having it taken away, than of having to use it. how lame is that?
I know for a fact that had I been armed, everything would have been different. I can't honestly say things would have gone better or worse, cause I don't think possibly killing someone is a "better" thing, but in the scope of "cleaning up the streets," well, maybe a little justice would have been served.
It was in dallas off of 635 and BeltLine. beyond that, i don't remember, being as it was a year ago, and I only went there that once.
yeah, we all saw those guys. the funny thing is, that neighborhood is really nice! The cops told us that the particular area in question borders, about a mile down the road, a really bad area, and those Gangsta's are just seeping out into the nicer areas. nice, huh?
ah, well.
thanks, again.

I found this story in a Houston Blog called "Blogs of War:" I think it has the ring of truth to it?

Gun Control Gets Personal
Posted on April 22nd, 2007 by John Little

The following took place between 4:30 and 4:35 PM.

I was returning from eating sushi with a friend and preparing to parallel park in front of my building in Houston’s Midtown when my day turned into an episode of 24. I heard a scream just as I hit reverse and looked to my left where I saw a very scary looking guy, maximum security prison type scary, grab my neighbor, punch him, and throw him to the sidewalk.

This is a very nice part of Houston but it’s surrounded by some of the not so nice parts. Still, we don’t see much violence. This area is full of sidewalk cafes and upscale shops. So this event was already a departure from the norm but it was about to get worse.

I slammed the Explorer into park, jumped out and screamed something in an attempt to break things up. The attacker kept going, I didn’t want to get into this fight but the attacker’s buddy was moving in now and it was obvious that I was going to have to.

My neighbor didn’t stand a chance and he was getting pushed down the sidewalk. I decided to sprint for the attacker’s back and try to spear him and put him down when my neighbor, arms and legs bloodied, came up in a perfect shooting stance with a .380. He was amped and screaming “Don’t fu*king do it..back away� and I was in the middle of it.

I didn’t know what started this fight and I don’t know my neighbor well enough to be comfortable with him going Jack Bauer in my presence so I had a whole lot of factors to weigh and decisions to make in those few seconds. All of this occurred in about 15-20 seconds so there wasn’t a lot of time to think. My neighbor didn’t seem like a threat so I decided to hold my ground and try to be a voice of reason or at least a witness. I told the attacker that he was going to get shot, that he should leave, that police were on their way but he wasn’t budging. The whole thing was way more intense than I can convey in this blog post.

Now it’s bad enough that my parking attempt has turned into a primetime crime drama but the fact that the attacker and his buddy aren’t running scared is quickly making the entire episode turn much worse. My neighbor is still in his shooting stance and telling the guy to leave but he remains about 10 feet away, he’s very agitated, and talking trash. He’s screaming “You won’t shoot me pu**y� and acting like he’s going to charge. Meanwhile I’m screaming at him, my neighbor is screaming at him, and his buddy has taken my advice and left. Overall this isn’t going well.

Eventually the attacker backs across the street. My neighbor lowers his gun but the conversation between the two is ongoing and extremely heated. I asked my neighbor if he was licensed (he is) and then told him not to shoot the attacker as he was leaving since that seemed like a possibility. I didn’t want his fear and anger to get him into trouble. It’s generally not a good idea to shoot bad guys in retreat. Unfortunately, our bad guy wasn’t in full retreat.

Just when it seemed like the guy was going to leave he decided to charge back across the street. I was fearing for my safety at that point so I tried to get out of the way but he headed straight for my neighbor. The gun came back up and my neighbor retreated as far as he could. His back was to the building and I think we were both terrified at that point. When you’re facing an unarmed attacker who will charge a man with a gun there’s good reason to be scared. More screaming again as my neighbor is telling him “I fear for my safety - I will shoot you.� I fully expected and braced for the shot but the attacker retreated at the last minute. Another foot and he would have been a dead man. Most people, me included, would probably have shot him during the second charge but my neighbor gave this guy every opportunity to walk away.

The attacker didn’t retreat far though. He crossed the three lane street and grabbed a large rock. I saw this and, given the events so far, expected him to charge back and come back with it rather than throw it. I told my neighbor, the gun came up again, but the rock hit a parked car where it inflicted quite a bit of damage.

Luckily that was the end of it. Well, not the end. The attacker ran off and police (quite a few police) rolled up a couple of minutes later. One of the police officers who lives in our building was first on scene (off-duty) and he coordinated the search for the attackers. The police gave my neighbor surprisingly little trouble but there were also plenty of witnesses praising him for his restraint. Almost to a man the officers we talked to said that in the same situation they would have used deadly force. It would have been justified at almost any point but the second charge by the attacker made it a no-brainer.

I didn’t find out was provoked the attack until later. My neighbor had seen the attacker and his buddy mugging another man, yelled out his window for them to stop, and called 911. While he was on the phone to the dispatcher they moved out of view and he walked out to the sidewalk to see if he could determine their direction of travel for the police. Unfortunately, they hadn’t moved far and they immediately attacked him instead.

Two weeks after obtaining his Texas Concealed Carry License and I’d say he did quite well. He has only has minor cuts and bruises, nobody is dead, the initial victim was able to run away, and I didn’t have to get in there and scrap with these thugs in what would have been one hella ugly brawl. Whoever trained him did one hell of a job. I know this story won’t change any minds but sometimes the system works in favor of the good guys. I got to witness that firsthand this afternoon.