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txinvestigator
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Post by txinvestigator »

TheRising wrote:I'm not too sure why you guys are being so hard-headed about this. I am no less a supporter of CHLs being allowed to carry where they want, but you must not understand the people you are dealing with. I JUST graduated from College, Penn State to be exact. I am STILL in that 18-24 age group, 23 to be exact. Why is it that I can see a need to "deal" with the liberal ideaology of college campuses to get what we want and none of you "wiser" older guys can? If you want to stand there with your arms folded across your chest, yelling on the playground, and not give up any ground that you're already NOT standing on, fine by me, but that is not the direction I plan on going. You will get no where. This is a political beast. If you want to live in la-la land and think that we will be granted everything the Framers "gave" to us, go ahead, but I will guarantee that you will get nowhere.
Well, you certainly told us. :roll: Did they teach you that "know-it-all" attitude too?

Your age group is why YOU don't get it.

Your plan is absurd and unrealistic, and if you had any real life experience you would know it.
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Post by TheRising »

Thanks for confirming my suspiscions. While this may not go for most of you, I suspect you old guys just HATE it when a new, younger guy comes in with a new idea. Your tough and rugged "no compromise" attitude is the very reason why we have the restrictions we do when carrying our weapons. It is because of people like you TxInvestigator, that no one wants to deal with US. The collective outsider group of "anti's" see only old men with their rifles and shotguns on their doorstep, waiting for the liberals to walk by, and you have shown me much about this gun community you are a part of. When you decide to live in a world where compromises must be made for the whole, so that those of us who want to protect ourselves and them can, maybe your contribution will be heeded.

As for this forum, I appreciate all of the knowledge and wit that is passed around here, but I refuse to be part of a community of people that would rather be bull-headed in their approach, knowing nothing will be done about it, than taking a compromise so that we can protect the student who will replace us all in the future. You clearly have a problem with "young-blood" thoughts and new ideas. You are no longer the young guns of this issue and it kills you to deal with it. This issue needs a younger generation to relate to the younger and younger people who are running this country.

I have real world experience. I tried at my school of over 50,000 students to get the law changed with your old timer attitude and nothing was changed. Maybe if you would prepare yourself for the world you are living 10 years behind in, you would better understand my approach. But, to be honest, I could care less because I know you are already set in your ways. And that will get you nowhere. This isn't the rural South anymore, and you don't make the rules.

And for the record, please don't ever call me son again. My father is much more respectable than you will ever be.

This will be my last post. Feel free to do with it as you may. Hopefully you'll let a couple people read it.
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stevie_d_64
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Post by stevie_d_64 »

And knowing where the arrows of public opinion are coming from is a way to understnad what it is we face in this battle...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1 ... 86,00.html

I'm going to post the entire article here so that if the link goes away you can still see what was written...

I believe this is important to help us keep a good perspective on what we are dealing with...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EUROPEAN PRESS REACTIONS

Blaming Charlton Heston

With a view to Monday's deadly shooting rampage at Virginia Tech, European newspapers are blaming the lack of gun control measures in the United States and implying that Charlton Heston is indirectly responsible for the scope of the killings.

In America, "buying a machine gun is often easier than getting a driver's license."
Across the continent on Tuesday, European media rubber-neck at Monday's massacre in the United States. Most seem to agree about one thing: The shooting at Virginia Tech is the result of America's woeful lack of serious gun control laws. In the strongest editorialized image of the day, German cable news broadcaster NTV flashed an image of the former head of the National Rifle Association, the US gun lobby: In other words, blame rifle-wielding Charlton Heston for the 33 dead.

Papers reserve their sharpest criticism for the 2004 expiration of a 10-year ban on semi-automatic weapons under the then Republican-controlled Congress. Others comment on the pro-gun lobbying activities of Heston's NRA. Some papers also draw analogies between school shootings and Muslim fundamentalist suicide bombers.

British daily The Independent writes:

"The passionate feelings of the gun lobby may be traced to the Second Amendment of the US Constitution, enshrining 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms'. Although the provision stems from the times when 'well regulated militias' were deemed necessary to protect against a British attempt to regain the lost colonies, it is the default position of any argument against greater gun control here."

"As such, it has trumped every other consideration, not least the fact that on any given day about 80 people are killed by firearms, the vast majority by murder or suicide. Gun violence may cost $2.3 billion each year in medical expenses, but it is a price, gun supporters believe, that is worth paying to protect a fundamental freedom ..."

"There is no sign of attitudes hardening. Despite the opposition of every police force in the land, Congress in 2004 allowed to lapse a 10-year federal ban on semi-automatic assault weapons, a particular favorite of violent criminals. The reaction was not exactly deafening. Even amid yesterday's shock, the initial calls were for stricter security measures on campuses -- not serious moves to reduce gun ownership."

The Times of London writes:

"The trauma of the death of the students at Virginia Tech that will spread across the university and the whole country will be magnified by the feelings of so many people who feel that they should have been able to prevent it."

"Doubtless there will be a call to review the availability of firearms. The National Rifle Association's (NRA) response is predictable too. They will point out that events such as this are not carried out by a rifle-wielding member of a weekend militia. There is no doubt that access to rapid-action shotguns makes these events even more destructive but as we have seen with suicide bombers, who are closer to spree killers than is often realized, if a person really wants to take their own life and kill others in doing so it is exceptionally difficult to prevent it."

French daily Le Monde writes:

"The shooting at Virginia Tech ... is a dramatic episode of school violence that fits into a long series of such episodes, a series topped by the drama at Columbine, the school attacked by two adolescents in 1999 ..."

"If Columbine left such a strong impression, that was because it was one of the first dramas of school violence that received broad coverage in the media. Americans were informed of what was happening in real time, via TV and the radio. The students called their families or CNN even as the killers were still roaming the corridors of the schools. ..."

"This new tragedy presents a new opportunity for American public opinion to interrogate itself about a society which, as one of the students who survived Columbine said at the time, is very much responsible for what has happened."

French conservative daily Le Figaro writes:

"It was all too easy easy for the elected representatives of the United States, from the White House to the Congress, to express their sadness yesterday; America's problem with fire-arms represents a political issue for which they share responsibility. Here is a country that represents the vanguard of development and democracy while it is legal to carry a gun in 45 of 50 states, as long as the gun is not loaded. ... At the end of 2004, the Republican-controlled Congress allowed a law to expire that prohibited the sale of semi-automatic and military weapons. Thereafter, legal changes were made to protect the producers and vendors of fire-arms from being held responsible for the actions of gun owners."

"Contrary to what one would imagine, this backward stance is not something left over from the Wild West. It goes back to the creation of the United States and the War of Independence against the English. ... While most states have issued laws designed to control the sale of arms, the NRA ensures they remain inefficient or are not applied. Strongly linked to the conservative fringe of the Republican Party, the NRA spent $400,000 a day to prevent the election of the Democratic candidate John Kerry during the 2004 presidential elections ..."

"Yesterday's massacre will surely revive the debate in the United States, but within the federal system, the question is ultimately settled by each individual state. Going back on the lapsing of the law issued by Washington could provide an opportunity for the Supreme Court to take a stance on the issue for the first time since 1939."

Italian daily Il Corriere della Sera writes:

"Shocked psychologists and sociologists ask themselves how gun violence is to be explained. Some speak of the repressed violence of a country that goes back to generations of pioneers habituated to achieve justice on their own and which is forced to face the powerful tensions within a multiracial society. Others criticize the spread of violent video games (which are, however, a phenomenon that has only emerged in recent years). In any case, gun violence is becoming a common phenomenon in the United States, one that is no longer surprising. In major cities such as New York, the extension of surveillance measures, a tough approach to crime and measures to rebuild the urban fabric have led to a drop in crime and especially in the number of homicides. But in suburban areas and smaller cities, episodes of 'ordinary violence' are on the rise. In the poorest neighborhoods, people are getting used to the use of fire-arms -- a phenomenon that is linked to the growing tendency among many young people to resort to violence to settle even minor disputes and to the ease with which weapons can be acquired."

Italian daily Il Messaggero writes:

"The bloodbath on the university campus is the work of a suicide killer -- an American suicide killer who, differently from Muslim killers, did not act out of religious motives but was driven instead by the unrest affecting broad layers of US society. America is a nation that has for some years been in danger of becoming more and more unloved in the world, especially in the poorest countries. During the period following World War II, America was seen as the guardian of democracy and was equated with the defense of liberty; today, America is a superpower that begins wars and lives with the constant necessity of having to defend itself against the enemy -- whether this enemy be called Islam or whether it bears the face of the neighbor who has done you wrong."

Spanish daily El Pais writes:

"The president of Virginia Tech called it a tragedy of monumental proportions. But similar comments could already be heard following previous tragedies of this kind. The shooting spree at the Columbine high school in Colorado, for instance, revived the debate on the necessity of better controlling access to weapons. This led to some laws being toughened and security at schools being improved. But the measures are decided by the individual states and are constantly side-stepped by means of an exaggerated interpretation of the US constitution."

German daily Bild writes:

"Now we will probably begin discussing the overly lax gun laws in the United States. There, buying a machine gun is often easier than getting a driver's license. And a new ban on violent games and killer videos will also be put back on the agenda. But in the end, nothing is likely to happen. And the next killer already lives somewhere among us. But we have little reason to point an accusing finger at the Americans. Despite strict gun legislation, we (in Germany) have experienced the school shootings in Erfurt and Emsdetten. We have to consider the problems in our society. And we have to take care of our fellow humans."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This all kinda fits in the overall persona of how emboldened the gun-control movement will be...And even though I could care less about how these folks feel about it...It is a threat to us on many fronts...

Just something to keep in perspective...
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Post by Wildscar »

TheRising wrote:This will be my last post. Feel free to do with it as you may. Hopefully you'll let a couple people read it.
Didn't you say this in another post already.

But anyway. It's like someone already mentioned. If you collect all the CHL in one area to get CAMPUS training then whats to say one of those is not the BG that planning the next blood bath. He would then know who to target first. Did you not ever thing about that. If the person is old enough and the state goverment can trust him to get a CHL then why cant the campus staff trust them to carry. Makes no sence to me. Since there was no one on campus with a firearm to stop him and he took the cowards way out and shot himself we will never know if it would have made a diffrence. But I would like to think it would have.
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Post by txinvestigator »

TheRising wrote:Thanks for confirming my suspiscions. While this may not go for most of you, I suspect you old guys just HATE it when a new, younger guy comes in with a new idea. Your tough and rugged "no compromise" attitude is the very reason why we have the restrictions we do when carrying our weapons. It is because of people like you TxInvestigator, that no one wants to deal with US. The collective outsider group of "anti's" see only old men with their rifles and shotguns on their doorstep, waiting for the liberals to walk by, and you have shown me much about this gun community you are a part of. When you decide to live in a world where compromises must be made for the whole, so that those of us who want to protect ourselves and them can, maybe your contribution will be heeded.

As for this forum, I appreciate all of the knowledge and wit that is passed around here, but I refuse to be part of a community of people that would rather be bull-headed in their approach, knowing nothing will be done about it, than taking a compromise so that we can protect the student who will replace us all in the future. You clearly have a problem with "young-blood" thoughts and new ideas. You are no longer the young guns of this issue and it kills you to deal with it. This issue needs a younger generation to relate to the younger and younger people who are running this country.

I have real world experience. I tried at my school of over 50,000 students to get the law changed with your old timer attitude and nothing was changed. Maybe if you would prepare yourself for the world you are living 10 years behind in, you would better understand my approach. But, to be honest, I could care less because I know you are already set in your ways. And that will get you nowhere. This isn't the rural South anymore, and you don't make the rules.

And for the record, please don't ever call me son again. My father is much more respectable than you will ever be.

This will be my last post. Feel free to do with it as you may. Hopefully you'll let a couple people read it.
Son, your life is going to be tough, seeing how you know so much more than everyone else. :roll:

I hope you get that chip off your shoulder yourself. Life is going to be painful for you otherwise.

Perhaps had you made valid arguments against those who disagree, rather than attack them because of it you would have been accepeted and listened to. You can't change the minds of people by ridiculing them. One would think they would teach that in college, too.

And how "pot calling the kettle black" of you to chastise people who disagree with you, then you bail out when your ideas are not embraced by people who have more experience, training, education and common sense than you.

Learn that at Penn State too?
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Post by jimlongley »

I just love getting lectures from someone younger than my grandchildren about doing things we tried before he was born.

Compromise is hardly a new idea, it didn't work for Neville Chamberlain, the Gun Control Act of 1968, and it won't work any better in the hands of an inexperienced kid who thinks he knows it all.
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Post by Crossfire »

OK guys, lets stop this NOW. If you don't agree, then you don't agree. No need for personal attacks.
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Post by CHL/LEO »

This all kinda fits in the overall persona of how emboldened the gun-control movement will be...And even though I could care less about how these folks feel about it...It is a threat to us on many fronts...
In my opinion, if we get a democrat elected as President in two years be prepared for gun control legislation like we've never seen before - especially if the House and Senate stay democratic.

Also, after reading all of this from the European press, you can see why the UN is trying to force their gun control restrictions on the US.
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Post by stevie_d_64 »

CHL/LEO wrote:
This all kinda fits in the overall persona of how emboldened the gun-control movement will be...And even though I could care less about how these folks feel about it...It is a threat to us on many fronts...
In my opinion, if we get a democrat elected as President in two years be prepared for gun control legislation like we've never seen before - especially if the House and Senate stay democratic.

Also, after reading all of this from the European press, you can see why the UN is trying to force their gun control restrictions on the US.
Thanks...Thats one other that sees what is stacked against us...Both foriegn and domestic...

Thanks CHL/LEO for coming over and standing with me on this side of that line in the sand...

Lots of room left over here guys and gals...
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Post by jimlongley »

CHL/LEO wrote:
This all kinda fits in the overall persona of how emboldened the gun-control movement will be...And even though I could care less about how these folks feel about it...It is a threat to us on many fronts...
In my opinion, if we get a democrat elected as President in two years be prepared for gun control legislation like we've never seen before - especially if the House and Senate stay democratic.

Also, after reading all of this from the European press, you can see why the UN is trying to force their gun control restrictions on the US.
Although the europeans complain when we say similar things about them, I doubt they will ever stop criticizing us. We are a separate and independent nation, europe's opinions should have no effect on us.

Maybe it's time to re-institute the Monroe Doctrine, and the UN to move out of New York City.

As we see a Democrat try to get elected this will be a major issue, and it may actually serve to be a really polarizing one.

I wonder if someone involved would take up the cudgel and sue the state/school/someone for preventing them from being able to defend themselves, it might just be a case with potential for Supreme Court involvement.
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Post by txinvestigator »

jimlongley wrote:
CHL/LEO wrote:
This all kinda fits in the overall persona of how emboldened the gun-control movement will be...And even though I could care less about how these folks feel about it...It is a threat to us on many fronts...
In my opinion, if we get a democrat elected as President in two years be prepared for gun control legislation like we've never seen before - especially if the House and Senate stay democratic.

Also, after reading all of this from the European press, you can see why the UN is trying to force their gun control restrictions on the US.
Although the europeans complain when we say similar things about them, I doubt they will ever stop criticizing us. We are a separate and independent nation, europe's opinions should have no effect on us.

Maybe it's time to re-institute the Monroe Doctrine, and the UN to move out of New York City.

As we see a Democrat try to get elected this will be a major issue, and it may actually serve to be a really polarizing one.

I wonder if someone involved would take up the cudgel and sue the state/school/someone for preventing them from being able to defend themselves, it might just be a case with potential for Supreme Court involvement.
We have to be careful in what we say. This is not accurate "I wonder if someone involved would take up the cudgel and sue the state/school/someone for preventing them from being able to defend themselves" NO one and nothing preventing them from defending themselves. The law effectively prevented them from using a firearm to defend themselves.

No, I don't want to face a firearm unarmed. We need to change the law. Let's not do what the grabbers do and sensationalize and exaggerate.
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Post by ScubaSigGuy »

CHL/LEO wrote:
This all kinda fits in the overall persona of how emboldened the gun-control movement will be...And even though I could care less about how these folks feel about it...It is a threat to us on many fronts...
In my opinion, if we get a democrat elected as President in two years be prepared for gun control legislation like we've never seen before - especially if the House and Senate stay democratic.

Also, after reading all of this from the European press, you can see why the UN is trying to force their gun control restrictions on the US.

Unfortunately it's not just a democrat that we have to worry about. Have your read Guiliani, and McCain's stance on firearms. We don't have any friends in this election.
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Post by ScubaSigGuy »

llwatson wrote:OK guys, lets stop this NOW. If you don't agree, then you don't agree. No need for personal attacks.
Everybody has an opinion and that's OK but we can't afford to be divided amongst ourselves. We are already the minority opinion in the country but we have to stick together. This is an issue that we are all passionate about, let's use the energy to do educate people on the fence.


Thanks positng those articles Stevei_d.
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Post by stevie_d_64 »

txinvestigator wrote:
jimlongley wrote:
CHL/LEO wrote:
This all kinda fits in the overall persona of how emboldened the gun-control movement will be...And even though I could care less about how these folks feel about it...It is a threat to us on many fronts...
In my opinion, if we get a democrat elected as President in two years be prepared for gun control legislation like we've never seen before - especially if the House and Senate stay democratic.

Also, after reading all of this from the European press, you can see why the UN is trying to force their gun control restrictions on the US.
Although the europeans complain when we say similar things about them, I doubt they will ever stop criticizing us. We are a separate and independent nation, europe's opinions should have no effect on us.

Maybe it's time to re-institute the Monroe Doctrine, and the UN to move out of New York City.

As we see a Democrat try to get elected this will be a major issue, and it may actually serve to be a really polarizing one.

I wonder if someone involved would take up the cudgel and sue the state/school/someone for preventing them from being able to defend themselves, it might just be a case with potential for Supreme Court involvement.
We have to be careful in what we say. This is not accurate "I wonder if someone involved would take up the cudgel and sue the state/school/someone for preventing them from being able to defend themselves" NO one and nothing preventing them from defending themselves. The law effectively prevented them from using a firearm to defend themselves.

No, I don't want to face a firearm unarmed. We need to change the law. Let's not do what the grabbers do and sensationalize and exaggerate.
Well you know Suzanne Hupp did that once and is on record in front of a congressional committee after her parents were killed in Killeen...

She laid into them like Sherman through Georgia, and the reaction was very lethargic from the likes of Chuck Schumer and his ilk...

I doubt anyone will be given an audience again like that ever again...
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Post by jimlongley »

txinvestigator wrote:We have to be careful in what we say. This is not accurate "I wonder if someone involved would take up the cudgel and sue the state/school/someone for preventing them from being able to defend themselves" NO one and nothing preventing them from defending themselves. The law effectively prevented them from using a firearm to defend themselves.

No, I don't want to face a firearm unarmed. We need to change the law. Let's not do what the grabbers do and sensationalize and exaggerate.
True, I allowed my fingers to run without engaging my brain. They were prevented from EFFECTIVELY defending themselves. I too would not like to face a firearm unarmed, but given the alternative . . .
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