Federal Border agents try to intimidate travelers

[Dadtodabone]

IMO that is a poor decision to not notify an agent that you are armed while being searched. I never say anything driving through, but if sent to secondary I would as that is common courtesy. Had they seen the gun or your hand brushed it the situation could have been real ugly real quick. They are doing their job and why make it more difficult?

I have nothing but respect for the men and women that serve our nation in any capacity. I have never failed to present both my TX DL and TX CHL when asked for identification or notify an officer as to my carry status armed or not. We were directed to secondary, and the other CBP agent walked up on the right side of the car as we parked. Your "opinion" that I failed in "common courtesy", IMO is presumptuous.
If you could have rolled down your window(I was in the right front seat) and notified the agent that you were armed in the second or two in which the event transpired, you're a real fast talker. Or should I have shouted it to the first agent as my wife drove away from him?
Further, we had not consented to a search nor were we told that we were going to be searched, nor was the interior of the vehicle ever searched. They had a dog walk around the outside after the DPS Trooper arrived and calmed the agents in regards our lawful carry of our concealed handguns. Neither I nor my wife did anything to make their job more difficult.

No video to see

Are you implying that my post is a fiction? Are you implying that citizens of these United States need have video records to prove their innocence when traveling within their borders? What does your statement mean?

I can say from working with them they get treated like garbage non stop and the ones working the borders have a tough job as nobody likes them, they often get shot at, yet they are our only line of defense against all that crosses the border. Maybe it's just me but I cut them some slack.

If my wife stating in a calm, level voice that the CBP agent had no business inquiring into our activities, is in someway poor treatment of the agent, I beg to differ. Or did my reference to her being possessed influence your view of her statement. That she replied in the negative to an authority figure of any stripe, not once but twice, was the cause for surprise. She wasn't shouting or combative, didn't needlessly repeat her statements ad nauseum, she simply refused to provide information. Perhaps she should just have invoked her 5th Amendment right against self-incrimination, I fail to see how that would have improved the situation though.
When is it okay to refuse to be coerced by anyone acting under color of law? Does a tough job, being shot at or being disliked allow them the usurpation of the rights granted to us by God and protected within our Constitution?

When working those details under their authority one all of a sudden has magic powers that one would not normally have as a regular LEO.

This statement bothers me. You? How can it be possible for "regular LEOs", while restricted by the same Constitution, to not have that same magic power? Could it be that these wizard like Feds are overstepping and abusing their powers of search and seizure? Has DHS lost suits brought in Federal courts over just such activities? I cited one in an earlier post on this thread that cost us $200k when the 5th Circuit found for the plaintiff. There are more.

This event occurred in 2010, I only posted it in reply to a question asked by another board member.

I have never been one to bash LEOs or Feds(my sister-in-law is one, brother-in-law retired fibbie) nor have I ever posted anything that could be construed as support for Youtubers who are intentionally provocative when stopped by LEOs or CBP. I will say that I have held BLM management in low regard for about 50 years and have posted about it. I have posted information that has debunked many of the popular conspiracy theorist that swarm all over the web and find their way here through posts from like minded or uninformed board member's posts.

That your post so deeply affected me, hence my extended reply, is disquieting for me. Perhaps I've reached a point, an epiphany if you will, like many others, where I no longer am willing to excuse or apologize for the activities of a government run amok, placing blame on a few bad actors within an over all sound frame work. I've some thinking to do.

One last question, I know from your posts that you work with K-9s, of what benefit is it that a K-9 handler circles around a vehicle slapping the lead against it? That was something that did upset my wife.
I did mistakenly type the wrong year for the Acadia in my original post and did edit it. If that was a concern, I apologize. I have a 2012 GMC Sierra and have never referred to my wife's car in correspondence.

[Doug.38PR]

I've never personally had a problem at checkpoints. I actually had a civil and reasonable exchange with one agent acfewvyears ago. But this behavior is in violation of constitutional law. I saw your post Mr. Cotton. I'll try to find it on YouTube when I get back to my computer later this evening. Kind of hard on my phone right now

[E.Marquez]

I've never personally had a problem at checkpoints. I actually had a civil and reasonable exchange with one agent acfewvyears ago. But this behavior is in violation of constitutional law. I saw your post Mr. Cotton. I'll try to find it on YouTube when I get back to my computer later this evening. Kind of hard on my phone right now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Y1PdY0pOFA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know the link is wrong and will not embed.. but if someone can copy it correctly, there it is from youtube

[Jaguar]

And to further the "search" critera for suspicionless inland checkpoints, here is page 167, section 18.6, paragraph (e) of the CBP Inspector’s Field Manual:

Source: (opens a PDF document) http://shusterman.com/pdf/cbpinspectorsfieldmanual.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

18.6 Warrantless Searches and Seizures.
(e) Checkpoints. The Border Patrol conducts two types of inland traffic-checking operations: checkpoints and roving patrols. Border Patrol agents can make routine vehicle stops without any suspicion to inquire into citizenship and immigration status at a reasonably located permanent or temporary checkpoint provided the checkpoint is used for the purpose of determining citizenship of those who pass through it, and not for the general search for those persons or the vehicle. Inquiries must be brief and limited to the immigration status of the occupants of the vehicle. The only permissible search is a “plain view” inspection to ascertain whether there are any concealed illegal aliens.

They should be concerned with illegal aliens, not suitcases or rifle sized cases in the back of a car no matter what material they are made from.

[Dadtodabone]

Dadtodabone, I think you are mistaken on Reasonable Suspicion - but the CBP agents seem to be too, as to what they can and cannot do.

Thank you for the research sir. My post was based on the info provided by my wife's younger, though nowhere near as beautiful, sister. I didn't research it, as it satisfied my wife, and I really didn't have a dog in this fight. I just chalked it up to a zealous agent trying to do a good job. No harm, no foul kinda thing.
My thinking is in the midst a sea change though. I'm looking forward to chatting up the SIL for the first time in years.

[Dadtodabone]

I've never personally had a problem at checkpoints. I actually had a civil and reasonable exchange with one agent acfewvyears ago. But this behavior is in violation of constitutional law. I saw your post Mr. Cotton. I'll try to find it on YouTube when I get back to my computer later this evening. Kind of hard on my phone right now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Y1PdY0pOFA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know the link is wrong and will not embed.. but if someone can copy it correctly, there it is from youtube

Had to eliminate the youtube poster's feature player junk.
[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=EY1PdY0pOFA[/youtube]

[Jaguar]

Dadtodabone, I think you are mistaken on Reasonable Suspicion - but the CBP agents seem to be too, as to what they can and cannot do.

Thank you for the research sir. My post was based on the info provided by my wife's younger, though nowhere near as beautiful, sister. I didn't research it, as it satisfied my wife, and I really didn't have a dog in this fight. I just chalked it up to a zealous agent trying to do a good job. No harm, no foul kinda thing.
My thinking is in the midst a sea change though. I'm looking forward to chatting up the SIL for the first time in years.

I changed my thinking a few years back - which is why I have their manual bookmarked on my computer.

[chasfm11]

I may be wrong but the discussion seems to be mixing apples and oranges.

I've visited many countries in Europe and also Canada. I've gone through border patrol check points AT THE BORDER many times. Once was on a train from Milan to Lucerne, Switzerland and also the reverse. I believe that every sovereign country has the right to examine those attempting to come through these check points. Upon re-entering the US, I've fully cooperated with all the questions that I was asked. I've filled out the required documents. All that is as it should be, IMHO. Those are the apples.

As an aside, the very worst border crossing I've ever had was flying into Toronto. I made the mistake of identifying myself as a project manager. That earned me 45 minutes of very ugly conversation with a Canadian border agent that ended up with my telling her that I was done talking and answering her questions and that she could now chose to admit me into her country or depart me back to the US and I was fine with either decision. I will fully cooperate with any border agent but will not abide mistreatment during the process.

Border checkpoints, like those miles inland from the US border are a different matter - oranges. I did not cross the border out of the US. I'm a US citizen driving on US roads. While I'm happy to respond that I'm a US citizen if asked, that is as cooperative as I intend to be. In most cases, I'm driving an RV so my purpose of being at that point is traveling. Unless they believe that they have intelligence about my specific vehicle, there is absolutely no valid reason for them to want to look inside it or ask me about its contents. A request for me to pull into a secondary inspection point is likely to be met with the same reaction as the person in the originally posted video.

Our politicians can choose to ignore that people are crossing illegally and that many of them are also living here illegally. I believe that by allowing these activities to continue unabated, the politicians are condoning the slave trafficing (including sex slaves) and the drug trafficing that are parts of it. I cannot do anything but complain loudly and frequently to my elected officials about how angry and upset I am with them for being party to allowing these things to occur. I will no accept them victimizing me within the US for those failures. However good the intention of internal checkpoints might be, they must be handled within the boundaries of the US Constitution. The 100 mile "zone" has no legal basis. As an aside again, I've traveled most of Europe, often times by car. I've never come across a secondary, internal checkpoint.

Honestly, I've quit flying because I hate what TSA does. I will not intentionally go where I know that I will be subjected to an internal Border Patrol checkpoint. Sometimes, however, there isn't a choice. If I have to put up with, so do they. They don't get to make up their own rules while they are doing it. If they stay within their boundaries and treat me with respect, I'll do the same. I have no quarrel with the BP agents. If otherwise - otherwise.

[Doug.38PR]

I've never personally had a problem at checkpoints. I actually had a civil and reasonable exchange with one agent acfewvyears ago. But this behavior is in violation of constitutional law. I saw your post Mr. Cotton. I'll try to find it on YouTube when I get back to my computer later this evening. Kind of hard on my phone right now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Y1PdY0pOFA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know the link is wrong and will not embed.. but if someone can copy it correctly, there it is from youtube

Had to eliminate the youtube poster's feature player junk.
[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=EY1PdY0pOFA[/youtube]

Thank you Dadtodabone!,
I'll replace it in the Original Post

I just got back to my computer. Funny, I entered Border Patrol checkpoint refusal into youtube and about a jillion different videos came up (that alone makes this subject pretty interesting. So I came back here to look at the original title on the liveleaks video to enter that. Fortunately you had already found it for me. Thank you again

This apparently is a frequent problem http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... T1c8kqKZkQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My own experience about 8 or 9 years ago was the first time I went down to the Valley on hwy 79 or 59. heading towards McAllen. I was stunned to come upon a checkpoint 50 miles north of the border. Resented having to sit and wait wondering "Why isn't all this down on the border where the illegals are crossing?" So when the agent walked up to my window and ask "are you an American citizen? Do you have any illegal drugs in the car?" I answered "Yes I am. No I don't." and then ask him politely my question. He said, "We catch them up here. That's what the traveling public often doesn't understand, they cross the border down there, hike across these big ranches way out in the underbrush and get picked up on the highways once they are across and we catch them at these checkpoints." I nodded, "That makes sense." He was polite and made no illegal attempt to search my vehicle or anything and sent me on my way. (of course this was all before Bush and the so-called PATRIOT Act and Department of Fatherland Security)

[chasfm11]

[

My own experience about 8 or 9 years ago was the first time I went down to the Valley on hwy 79 or 59. heading towards McAllen. I was stunned to come upon a checkpoint 50 miles north of the border. Resented having to sit and wait wondering "Why isn't all this down on the border where the illegals are crossing?" So when the agent walked up to my window and ask "are you an American citizen? Do you have any illegal drugs in the car?" I answered "Yes I am. No I don't." and then ask him politely my question. He said, "We catch them up here. That's what the traveling public often doesn't understand, they cross the border down there, hike across these big ranches way out in the underbrush and get picked up on the highways once they are across and we catch them at these checkpoints." I nodded, "That makes sense." He was polite and made no illegal attempt to search my vehicle or anything and sent me on my way. (of course this was all before Bush and the so-called PATRIOT Act and Department of Fatherland Security)

He is living in a fantasy world. The coyotes know well where the checkpoints are and have drop offs below them and pickups above them while the illegals make their way through the neighboring private property. The checkpoint comes from the same security theater as the TSA checkpoints.

There is at least one organization of South Texas ranchers who is working to make the true store of the illegal activity known. They have pictures of very different stories that the DHS tells. How many people know that the emergency water stations put on known illegal immigration trails now has signs printed in Chinese?

[texanjoker]

amok, placing blame on a few bad actors within an over all sound frame work. I've some thinking to do.

One last question, I know from your posts that you work with K-9s, of what benefit is it that a K-9 handler circles around a vehicle slapping the lead against it? That was something that did upset my wife.
I did mistakenly type the wrong year for the Acadia in my original post and did edit it. If that was a concern, I apologize. I have a 2012 GMC Sierra and have never referred to my wife's car in correspondence.[/quote]


Not sure why you are are upset. That was not my intention at all. If it upset you I am sorry. Most of my post was about the ck points in general. The feds over reach their boundaries all the time. TSA is a complete joke and ATF let guns go to Mexico and one was used to kill a CBP agent...

My video comment was about the video itself for this post as I had not seen it as it was deleted and people are posting about some video. For all I know that CBP agent could have been bad but then I didn't get to see it. The handler is directing the dog where to sniff. I have never liked my car getting tapped either but that is something one really doesn't have control over at a CBP check point. I used to spend a long time in lines at the Pine Valley, CA check point coming back from Glamis...it was a pain.

When I am stopped by a leo, albeit it has been a decade plus, I immediately advise the LEO that I am armed and why. To me that is courtesy and I want to avoid any issues with a person that might flip out seeing a gun. Now when they are talking to me at the ck point I don't say anything as I want to keep going. There are laws that govern those check points that are within so many feet of a border. I won't get into all that as we all know they search a lot of cars. I never said you or your wife were treating them like garbage, but I said they receive way more disrespect then a regular leo and pointed that out.

A regular LEO cannot just enforce their federal search zones w/o being under their direction as in a detail with a CBP supervisor present. We adhere to the 4th amendment and normally do not work the border type check points. The ones I worked were at the point of entry and anybody can be searched there by CBP and you can be sure we searched a lot of LA gang bangers .. we were stopping cars going into mexico looking for money and stolen cars.. the bangers didn't like it and even questions how we could do a CBP type search as we were not customs. The CBP agents explained it to them.

IMO they need to secure the borders where people can't cross and do away with the check points. We are in a so call war on terror yet you can cross our border all day long. The border is a joke yet a very dangerous joke.

The bottom line is if Americans didn't want their illegal drugs and illegal workers the border would be secure and we wouldn't have check points.

[baldeagle]

Perhaps I've reached a point, an epiphany if you will, like many others, where I no longer am willing to excuse or apologize for the activities of a government run amok, placing blame on a few bad actors within an over all sound frame work. I've some thinking to do.

This is it precisely. As Americans we are tired of being told we must comply simply because someone said so and tired of having our rights trampled by out of control federal employees. We're tired of a Congress and a President who ignore the Constitution and routinely tell us we are the extremists when they are the ones breaking the law.

[EEllis]

I just thought it was funny how the BP didn't follow the girls script and thru off her memorized speech. "Am I detained?"
"Yes, pull over to the side."
LOL
I'm sure staying in the roadway makes them screen you faster, I'm also reasonable sure they can run quick check on you before they allow you to pass thru. They did the check and she went on her way and I'm not certain that it would of been any different if she pulled over except they may have been faster to get her going. If they can stop you for long enough to check your status, run their checks, then she would be breaking the law in Texas without a doubt. So can they stop you for a few min while running checks?

[Doug.38PR]

[

My own experience about 8 or 9 years ago was the first time I went down to the Valley on hwy 79 or 59. heading towards McAllen. I was stunned to come upon a checkpoint 50 miles north of the border. Resented having to sit and wait wondering "Why isn't all this down on the border where the illegals are crossing?" So when the agent walked up to my window and ask "are you an American citizen? Do you have any illegal drugs in the car?" I answered "Yes I am. No I don't." and then ask him politely my question. He said, "We catch them up here. That's what the traveling public often doesn't understand, they cross the border down there, hike across these big ranches way out in the underbrush and get picked up on the highways once they are across and we catch them at these checkpoints." I nodded, "That makes sense." He was polite and made no illegal attempt to search my vehicle or anything and sent me on my way. (of course this was all before Bush and the so-called PATRIOT Act and Department of Fatherland Security)

He is living in a fantasy world. The coyotes know well where the checkpoints are and have drop offs below them and pickups above them while the illegals make their way through the neighboring private property. The checkpoint comes from the same security theater as the TSA checkpoints.

There is at least one organization of South Texas ranchers who is working to make the true store of the illegal activity known. They have pictures of very different stories that the DHS tells. How many people know that the emergency water stations put on known illegal immigration trails now has signs printed in Chinese?

Well, he did say, if I recall, that they had sensors of some kind that picked up their presence in the lands off the highway. But still, you're right, that is a bit of a stretch.

[Jaguar]

I just thought it was funny how the BP didn't follow the girls script and thru off her memorized speech. "Am I detained?"
"Yes, pull over to the side."
LOL
I'm sure staying in the roadway makes them screen you faster, I'm also reasonable sure they can run quick check on you before they allow you to pass thru. They did the check and she went on her way and I'm not certain that it would of been any different if she pulled over except they may have been faster to get her going. If they can stop you for long enough to check your status, run their checks, then she would be breaking the law in Texas without a doubt. So can they stop you for a few min while running checks?

I don't think so, they are required to have reasonable suspicion one of them is an illegal alien in order to detain. According to their manual;

(b) Reasonable Suspicion. Before an inspector may constitutionally detain a person (non-entry related case), the inspector must have reasonable suspicion that the person is an alien and is illegally in the United States.

There are no other ways except for a visual “plain view” inspection of the vehicle and occupants. If someone had contraband in plain view they have probable cause, if a dog smells something they have probable cause. If they have probable cause or consent they may search - but they sure didn't have consent from her and probably understood from early on they were not going to get it, so they were digging for probable cause when they didn't even have a reasonable suspicion to detain them in the first place.

I love how the supervisor showed up and was all mad about her blocking traffic, but had no clue why she was being detained.

I'm sure a lot of these guys worked at a border crossing before going to a "non-entry" checkpoint. The rules are very different. At a border crossing all they need is "Mere Suspicion" that something/anything illegal is taking place and they can search and seize to their heart’s content. At a non-entry checkpoint they must have reasonable suspicion to detain, and probable cause to search.