CNN/ESPN writer talks about gun control...and makes sense

[TexasGal]

From the experiences my son has had seeking help for his depression with the mental health system I have seen that there may not be any such thing as a definitively correct diagnosis for people whose symptoms fit more than one disorder. It is the educated opinions of the doctors and, frankly, some I have met seem a bit odd themselves--no offense intended. Psychotropic meds can precipitate dramatic worsening of a person's illness if they are the wrong ones. The right ones can really help but mental health professionals figure it all out by educated trial and error.

There are a host of oddities of humans that make us neurotic or odd but not violent and these individuals should not have their gun rights taken away or be put on some arbitrary list or be made to feel stigmatized. It is ridiculous for someone who has panic disorder to be seen as a threat or the person who has a mild to moderate case of the blues. Or someone who needs to check 20 times a day that the napkins are straight on the table, etc.

Those who suffer from the severe mental illnesses that are associated with truly unpredictable dangerous behaviors are the ones that bear a careful oversight of their continued care and behavior for their sake and everyone's safety, but we just don't have a good system for that and what we do have can utterly fail to work. The VA should have put him in for inpatient care. He was suffering from paranoia and hallucinations--a bad combination. He should not have been left to struggle trying to function in society during a worsening of his illness. When he called the police telling them he was hearing 3 voices from the ceiling, walls, and floor and microwaves were being sent into his body to keep him awake, what if they had been able to immediately pick him up for a psychiatric evaluation and inpatient care then?

If we did start putting even the seriously ill on lists, diagnoses should be open to appeal to independent evaluations on a regular basis. Given the mental health professions are dominantly left in their politics, I can see a terrible risk of this becoming the quick and easy way to disarm and even make unemployable a lot of innocent people if just one doctor's opinion was all that was needed.

[anygunanywhere]

The last thinkg we need is the national government defining mental fitness to carry firearms.

Everything they touch turns to sewage.

Anygunanywhere

[jimlongley]

. . .

Guess what? I don't go to the doctor if I'm sore. I don't see the chiropractor. I don't see a physical therapist. Why not? Because I know what *might* happen if I have another incident of a sore neck on record. I avoid the doctor if I'm sick because it's something that I've got to keep track of for the next X years.

It's going to be hard to find a mental health restriction that isn't somewhat arbitrary. Or that can't be abused by an ill-intending 3rd party such as an ex-husband or wife... Again, I'm for it, but I haven't thought of a way to implement it that I could support.

Once you're on this registry, can you ever get off? Is it like the sex offender registry? I'd bet that most of us in our lifetimes will go through a period of emotional imbalance at least once... What's the percentage of the US population that has taken an anti-depressant in their lifetime? Should that ban them from firearms for life?

And the corollary, knowing that if you see a doctor for that occasional stiff neck, which it turns out is arthritic spinal stenosis in the neck, you might get restricted from flying, you avoid it, and one day at 7000 feet, with a Cessna full of friends doing some sight seeing, you lose complete feeling and control of your shoulders and arms as the stenosis finally becomes acute, and crash into a building in downtown Houston killing hundreds.

When my first wife was ill, I became a tad bit depressed, some might call it suicidal even, and after I found myself being treated as if I was a criminal (not a potential one, an actual one) I stopped seeing doctors for depression. Of course part of that could be attributed to the actions and influence of my second wife, but I sure hated being questioned, at every appointment, about did I have feeling about killing people.

And when my parrot bit me (something birds have a tendency to do) and I banged my thumb against the side of the cage, and went to the ER for treatment of the huge hematoma and evaluation as to whether I broke it, they placed my bird on the county "dog bite registry." One more reported biite and she gets taken away from me and destroyed.

The problem with lines drawn is that they are so often just the other side of the place where someone else thinks they should have been drawn, as in 15 round magazine bans, where a 14 rounder might work almost as well as a 16.

[RogueUSMC]

... and don't be afraid to drop a dime if you see something that even if it's only slightly strange check it out or, if you think you should, call the authorities and have then poke around a bit. I think most of this could be prevented. Even if they don't find anything and nothing comes of something you should take some solace in knowing you did the right thing.

So someone else should pay the price for your peace of mind?

So many times, even though allegations are debunked, the fact that the allegations were made remain on record. It gives folks too much of a free hand to be malicious with no repercussions. "I'm sorry you no longer have the freedom to defend yourself the way you see fit but you can surely feel better about the fact that I feel better about myself because I 'did something'"

[gthaustex]

I question the 900 mass shooting deaths in the last seven years. The article quoted USA Today's "analysis" of FBI data which sends up red flags. I don't know how to look up data that would be specific to mass shootings, but I don't recall that many in the last seven years. That means every year for the last 7 years there were 10. 7 people killed in mass shootings every month. I don't believe it.

That stat is "cooked". I read a different stat earlier (I'll post the link if I can find it) that I believe said 547 in the past 30 years. Not a tiny number but not 900 in 7 years, either.

And I found it, more straightforward article than you would think, too...Bloomberg, of all places. And I even got the number right.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-1 ... rders.html

The USA Today numbers also apparently take into account domestic violence homicides and others where the victims and the assailants knew each other, such as gang related violence...The 547 from Bloomberg does not.

These crimes don’t include gang-related killings or domestic disputes where a person slays relatives or other people linked to the assailant.

So, the 900 number from USA Today included any incident where 4 or more were killed, whether out in public, with random victims or in a situation where the attacker knew the victims. It always irks me how they never include people killed by knives, vehicles (drunk driving), or any other means. However, that wouldn't fit the narrative of controlling guns.

[OrangeAnimal]

By drop a dime that's slang old school for back when there were pay phones. LOL. I am not asking anybody to actually pay anything.

If I was I would want it on your dime. Subtle difference in words big difference in actual meaning.

[SewTexas]

Orange,
you're not getting it....
that's not what Rogue what saying....
here's the deal...what happens the next time YOU are unemployed, and get slightly down? and your friend gets concerned because Orange has guns! so your friend "drops a dime" to someone? and they come and say "hey, Orange is depressed, so we're going to take his guns and he needs to get help" but the next week you get a job and you're fine....what happens then? when really all you needed was your friends to keep an eye on you and spend some time with you.

"YOU" would be "PAYING" for your friends peace of mind

[OrangeAnimal]

Well that scenario isn't what I had in mind at all. I don't think you should say oh hey that guy looks down and seems mentally troubled I will do him a favor and report him to the police. Now if said man looks like that but has a gun in his hand that's a different story. I meant lend a hand when you see someone just down on there luck got a friend who could use some comforting etc. If it's real serious then by all means call the authorities.

Intervention, before it escalates could make all the difference and we would not need to have any watch group taking people by the hand and saying hey you're a little crazy and I am afraid you might do something bad so no gun for you. By the same token we shouldn't let those people drive or fly either cause they may do something bad. Might as well put those people in a special place too while were at it. Oh wait we already have places like that it's called prison or mental hospitals.

Sorry for any confusion I may have started I did not mean oh call the police cause that guy is talking to himself. LOL.

[RogueUSMC]

Well that scenario isn't what I had in mind at all. I don't think you should say oh hey that guy looks down and seems mentally troubled I will do him a favor and report him to the police. Now if said man looks like that but has a gun in his hand that's a different story. I meant lend a hand when you see someone just down on there luck got a friend who could use some comforting etc. If it's real serious then by all means call the authorities.

Intervention, before it escalates could make all the difference and we would not need to have any watch group taking people by the hand and saying hey you're a little crazy and I am afraid you might do something bad so no gun for you. By the same token we shouldn't let those people drive or fly either cause they may do something bad. Might as well put those people in a special place too while were at it. Oh wait we already have places like that it's called prison or mental hospitals.

Sorry for any confusion I may have started I did not mean oh call the police cause that guy is talking to himself. LOL.

Now I can agree with you as to the let's help a fella out as opposed to kick them while they're down...but at first, it looked like you were saying to 'report them to the authorities'. That just sounded too much like Germany 1938 to me.

[OrangeAnimal]

I meant to report someone seen who is obviously off their rocker. Suspicious activity etc. Robbery, Murder, etc in progress. I don't think unless you are very well prepared (chl or not) should get involved. Unless it's a situation you're sure you can prevail in.

Another thought most of the people who claim they were mentally unfit say it was due to some substance or another while there are many people who may not agree I think if you see anyone doing drugs or drinking and possibly endangering lives of others i.e. driving or similar. You absolutely should call the police and report it. My wife was hit by a lady who was under the influence of drugs and alcohol and almost killed while riding her motorcycle. No matter how hard we fought that lady still drives a car. So please call someone and put an end to it before it can get out of hand. We the people are the only ones who can protect our way of life and the lives of others.

I myself called on a couple girls who were driving all over the road in a Miata taking pictures of themselves after leaving a concert I followed them at a safe distance until a patrol car stopped them. In the short period of time they almost hit two cars and three roadway barriers one of which when they were headed up the on ramp they almost missed it entirely and it scared the crap out of me. That's what made me call in the first place. Do the right thing don't just look away. I see people drinking and driving in traffic next to me I have rolled my window down and politely say to them someone doing exactly as you are almost killed the mother of my child pour it out now before I get someone to help you. I don't mean to be an ass but I might have saved yours!

Just before anyone thinks well are you Mr. Perfect I am not I have been pulled over for drinking and driving albeit it's been 15 years ago and I haven't drank since at all. Before that I used to do it all the time. And even before that I was a wild party animal you name it I have done it all while behind the wheel. I am lucky enough to be alive and not ever been in any sort of accident due to it. My story isn't the norm. Most people don't stop before it is too late.

[RogueUSMC]

Seeing and reporting someone breaking the law is one thing, but too many people want everyone else around them to act the way they want them to act.

A few years ago, I had a boat...the old saying that the two happiest days for a boat owner is the day he gets his boat and the day he gets rid of it is very valid...and my neighbor didn't like where I parked it. I would get calls from code enforcement about this. The code enforcement guy was willing to work with me as he knew the neighbor was being unreasonable but he couldn't ignore them either. I jumped through hoops (including spending a holiday weekend pouring concrete instead of going to see my family) to avoid code infringement fines. He never told me which neighbor did the complaining but when the old drunk lady across the street died, the complaints stopped...interesting.

Now, I should be able to store my boat how I see fit on my property...but she was still able to cause me fits. She was able to do this because some time or another in the past, someone with enough influence...or just time on their hands...didn't like what someone else was doing next door to them and was able to get a city ordnance passed to make it where that neighbor couldn't do that no more.

Let's look at a hypothetical here...

Say I move into a new house. My new neighbor next door, who happens to be one who loses her mind when she sees a gun, sees me getting help from a few buddies moving a gun safe the size of a refrigerator into my house and decides she doesn't like it. This is the proverbial 64 year old busybody that adjusts the TV where she can watch her Dance Moms and still not miss a thing in the neighborhood through the big bay window on the front of her house.

I walk to the mailbox one day to get the mail. I see her out in her yard watering her gardenias and wave like a good neighbor. But later that night calls the police to complain about my daughter's boyfriends truck disturbing her peace at a quarter til nine at night when everyone knows law abiding citizens are snuggled up in their beds at that time. The police show up as they are required to do. They get a rundown on everything crazy that she has seen me do for the last three weeks. She tells them about the big case of beer that I had to use both hands to lug into the house (when in reality it was a fresh box of shooting clays that make fine targets and are bio-degradable)...and the fact that when I waved at her earlier that day, I had devilish sneer on my face that made her think I might be unhinged in some way.

The police come out every few weeks and she chronicles all the things she has seen occur at the house next door that reinforces in her mind that every gun owner has a gun so that it makes it easier to force my way into her home and have my way with her.

Maybe none of the above times the police have come out, have I even known I was the subject of their visit. As nothing illegal was happening, they never approached me about it.

Now, let's pretend there are administrative processes in place where 'the authorities' have to 'investigate the mental stability' of gun owners. The fact that she knows I have guns and she says I act all kinds of crazy, 'the authorities' now need to 'investigate my mental stability'...and for the public's safety, my guns are removed from my home until my stability is determined.

I step back to my earlier statement that all this just smacks of Germany 1938...

This is just my two cents adjusted for inflation...

[drjoker]

Interesting.

We need to seriously have a mental health registry. A place for professionals to list names that have been officially put on a mental health watch.

I read a letter from the NRA once saying that they are opposed to such a clause in the Obama Health Care Act due to the fact that the government may abuse this power. For example, what if a returning vet from Iraq has PTSD? He is put on this registry, but after a few years of therapy, he is "cured" but just like the sex offender registry, once you're in, you're in for life! Even if they take you off the registry, an unscrupulous libtard could make a copy and repost somewhere else! Notice the no fly list. Some people with names similar to terrorists have been put on the list. It takes many years of legal fees from high priced attorneys for you to even dream of taken off the list. Do we really want the government to start such a list of "mental defectives"? Adolf Hitler started such a list, remember?

Not a good idea. A very well articulated argument for it, but I'm no convinced and you might be surprised to find that neither are you!

As a general rule, the bigger the government is, the SMALLER YOU BECOME! I invite you to remember this.

[OrangeAnimal]

I understand your thoughts RogueUSMC. I think that is a very unlikely scenario to play out. Just a bit of a stretch. I am no stranger to the rules of code enforcement and the dreaded battles with home owners associations. Fact of the matter is this. If you have the foresight to see what "could" happen then you also have the ability to avoid it. I really also doubt that once the police come by just one time to check out the real situation that they are going to keep up that act several times over just to satisfy the lady across the street. I remember some years ago I called 911 to report that I thought my own home was possibly catching fire I could smell something burning in the attic. The lady took my info and the fire dept never showed up! I checked it out myself and found some loose insulation that was smoldering in the attic. The furnace was to blame. I called back to report it handled and the operator said I don't see that anyone was dispatched to your location to which I said "Well good thing my house didn't burn to the ground!". I was only slightly irritated. I went on about my business. So the point is this everyone is still human and while they could throw all their efforts into such a mundane thing likely they won't. They didn't come to put my fire out why would they help with your hypothetical one?


Lesson. Put your own fires out before they get to big for you to handle on your own!