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AndyC wrote:

Tic Tac wrote:

AndyC wrote:

VoiceofReason wrote:Think like a member of an entry-team - is your job easier if there are hundreds of students running around chaotically or if the doors are all closed and corridors empty?

It's even easier, and safer for everyone, if the students can evac same as a fire.

And run right past the shooter, yep.

Obviously evac is a great option *if* you know where the shooter is, but a lot of the times they simply don't. Empty hallways merely slow down the rate of carnage, that's all - it buys some time, and armed intervention is still needed.

Personally I'd like staff and teachers to be armed with concealed handguns, at least.

.....on both points.

I think the quotes got a little mixed up on this thread. I am being tagged with a quote from someone else’s post.

VoiceofReason wrote: I don’t know how I feel about it.

Andy have the schools updated with solid doors that can be locked from inside the school room?

Without that it seems to me they would just be providing bunches of captive targets for the shooter. On the other hand if they tried to evacuate, the halls would be so full, the shooter couldn’t miss.

Does anyone know if, during “lockdown”, someone is stationed at each door to allow only law enforcement in?

I don’t think I am going to be able to arrive at any sensible opinion on this.

I've met and been speaking to one of our school board members. I'm very careful to present snippets of information so as not to make myself into some sort of a zealot. Recently she brought up my school safety concerns and said that when I first mentioned firearms in the school, she was firmly against it. To her credit, she did listen to me, particularly when I talked about multiple layers of security like unique keyboard sequences on on the school's computers that could automatically trigger an alarm at the PD. I believe talking to her about that convinced her that my agenda was really the kid's safety and not just adding guns to the schools

I had a chance to talk to her about the recent CO shooting and how that was stopped because the shooter met resistance. She now understands that most of the shooters are cowards and that a gun fight is far less likely than a capitulation by the shooter. I also have her convinced that advertizing gun free zones in the schools is the wrong approach.

I mention all of this in the context your comments. The school board has hired a security consultant who is doing a building by building assessment of security and will come up with specific recommendations. The consultant believes and she and I agree, the it is very much a case by case basis. Evacuating my granddaughter's smaller, single story elementary school building with fire exits very close to most of the rooms is far different than evacuating the much larger multi-story secondary buildings. One size cannot fit all in this matter

The unfortunate part is that the plans really have to change, based on what is happening. A security breach in the office area probably needs a different response than if a shooter came through the end of our granddaughter's wing, the furthermost part of the building from the office. I find it appalling that they spend so much money on other things and that the office doesn't have security cameras to monitor those entrances. None of the classroom doors are lockable from the inside (key lock in the outside knob only) and the doors would not stop anyone determined to get in.

My school board member has offered me a chance to meet the security consultant. I'd really like to find out what his take on CHL carry on the schools is. It would not surprise me to learn that he is strongly against it.

Back to the ads. While the pro-gun one is more appealing to me, I'm not sure what impact it would have on the population. There seem to be too many people who simply wring their hands at the mear thought of guns. Too many people are simply in denial that evil exists or might visit them.

I'm encouraged by many comments. As a teacher I have spoken to my Superintendent, also. One thing that really bothers me is that here at the HS where I teach students routinely have to go to other buildings on campus, so the door security is pretty non-existent. They recently added a double entry to the front doors, but all a BG has to do is stand at one of the side doors, pound on the glass a while, an I'll bet my next paycheck that a student will eagerly open the door for them. To be serious about this threat, I suggested to the Sup that ALL doors be locked from the inside and out.
Replace the teachers' door keys with a master that opens the doors at the end of the halls. In case of a fire, you'll still have 12 - 30 teachers in any given hall with a key to let students out. By locking doors from the inside and out - and posting parent volunteers as security to monitor the doors that are used - the instance of a BG gaining entry is severely diminished.
I'm sure other districts/campuses are different, but we must allow the school to control safety, not decades old fire marshal guidelines.

- Dreamer42

Dreamer42 wrote:I'm encouraged by many comments. As a teacher I have spoken to my Superintendent, also. One thing that really bothers me is that here at the HS where I teach students routinely have to go to other buildings on campus, so the door security is pretty non-existent. They recently added a double entry to the front doors, but all a BG has to do is stand at one of the side doors, pound on the glass a while, an I'll bet my next paycheck that a student will eagerly open the door for them. To be serious about this threat, I suggested to the Sup that ALL doors be locked from the inside and out.
Replace the teachers' door keys with a master that opens the doors at the end of the halls. In case of a fire, you'll still have 12 - 30 teachers in any given hall with a key to let students out. By locking doors from the inside and out - and posting parent volunteers as security to monitor the doors that are used - the instance of a BG gaining entry is severely diminished.
I'm sure other districts/campuses are different, but we must allow the school to control safety, not decades old fire marshal guidelines.

- Dreamer42

Doesn't matter how many teachers you have in a hall with keys, fire code will not allow you to lock an exit so that a key is required to get out of the building. Those Fire Marshal guidelines for exits are not that old. I guarantee you have a much greater chance of that locked exit resulting in injury to a child than you do of having an active shooter on your campus.

jmra wrote:Doesn't matter how many teachers you have in a hall with keys, fire code will not allow you to lock an exit so that a key is required to get out of the building. Those Fire Marshal guidelines for exits are not that old. I guarantee you have a much greater chance of that locked exit resulting in injury to a child than you do of having an active shooter on your campus.

That's true but some people want to save children while others want to sacrifice those children on their Anti-2A altar.

nightmare wrote:

jmra wrote:Doesn't matter how many teachers you have in a hall with keys, fire code will not allow you to lock an exit so that a key is required to get out of the building. Those Fire Marshal guidelines for exits are not that old. I guarantee you have a much greater chance of that locked exit resulting in injury to a child than you do of having an active shooter on your campus.

That's true but some people want to save children while others want to sacrifice those children on their Anti-2A altar.

Well, I'm all for saving children and I for sure don't have an Anti-2A alter. I'm simply stating that possibly preventing escape from a fire because of a locked door is not progressive thinking in keeping our children safe.

jmra wrote:

nightmare wrote:

jmra wrote:Doesn't matter how many teachers you have in a hall with keys, fire code will not allow you to lock an exit so that a key is required to get out of the building. Those Fire Marshal guidelines for exits are not that old. I guarantee you have a much greater chance of that locked exit resulting in injury to a child than you do of having an active shooter on your campus.

That's true but some people want to save children while others want to sacrifice those children on their Anti-2A altar.

Well, I'm all for saving children and I for sure don't have an Anti-2A alter. I'm simply stating that possibly preventing escape from a fire because of a locked door is not progressive thinking in keeping our children safe.

I was agreeing with you but cynically thinking the politicians who want to prevent students from fleeing might have an ulterior motive. We know from F&F that the current administration doesn't mind innocents being slaughtered if that might advance their agenda.

nightmare wrote:

jmra wrote:

nightmare wrote:

jmra wrote:Doesn't matter how many teachers you have in a hall with keys, fire code will not allow you to lock an exit so that a key is required to get out of the building. Those Fire Marshal guidelines for exits are not that old. I guarantee you have a much greater chance of that locked exit resulting in injury to a child than you do of having an active shooter on your campus.

That's true but some people want to save children while others want to sacrifice those children on their Anti-2A altar.

Well, I'm all for saving children and I for sure don't have an Anti-2A alter. I'm simply stating that possibly preventing escape from a fire because of a locked door is not progressive thinking in keeping our children safe.

I was agreeing with you but cynically thinking the politicians who want to prevent students from fleeing might have an ulterior motive. We know from F&F that the current administration doesn't mind innocents being slaughtered if that might advance their agenda.

- Dreamer42[/quote]
Doesn't matter how many teachers you have in a hall with keys, fire code will not allow you to lock an exit so that a key is required to get out of the building. Those Fire Marshal guidelines for exits are not that old. I guarantee you have a much greater chance of that locked exit resulting in injury to a child than you do of having an active shooter on your campus.[/quote]

How about requiring a key to get in the classroom but just turn a knob to get out? If the kids are locked in the classrooms, it seems to me it would be of no consequence if the shooter(s) were in the hallway.

VoiceofReason wrote:How about requiring a key to get in the classroom but just turn a knob to get out? If the kids are locked in the classrooms, it seems to me it would be of no consequence if the shooter(s) were in the hallway.

If they have crashbars like external emergency exit doors I don't think that would violate code but IANAL.

VoiceofReason wrote:- Dreamer42

Doesn't matter how many teachers you have in a hall with keys, fire code will not allow you to lock an exit so that a key is required to get out of the building. Those Fire Marshal guidelines for exits are not that old. I guarantee you have a much greater chance of that locked exit resulting in injury to a child than you do of having an active shooter on your campus.[/quote]

How about requiring a key to get in the classroom but just turn a knob to get out? If the kids are locked in the classrooms, it seems to me it would be of no consequence if the shooter(s) were in the hallway.[/quote]


That's the way our school is set up. Most of the classroom doors stay locked (but you can exit without a key). All exterior doors are the same way except for the main entrance.

This why we don't lock exit doors. Adherence to our safety codes is why these kind of stories are rare in the States.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/17/world/asi ... tory-fire/
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/reports- ... farm-china

jmra, That's my point. How many fires each year are there in a school (especially modern buildings made of steel and concrete and stone)? How much more common are shootings in schools in the last 20 years? Don't tell me you're serious about keeping kids safe when you are unwilling to SECURE the building. If not keys, then what? I don't see realistic plans being discussed (not here, but at our district) so we'll just get lip service until, unfortunately, more of this suffering is seen again.

Dreamer42 wrote:jmra, That's my point. How many fires each year are there in a school (especially modern buildings made of steel and concrete and stone)? How much more common are shootings in schools in the last 20 years? Don't tell me you're serious about keeping kids safe when you are unwilling to SECURE the building. If not keys, then what? I don't see realistic plans being discussed (not here, but at our district) so we'll just get lip service until, unfortunately, more of this suffering is seen again.

I never said don't lock doors to keep people out. I said you can't lock doors to keep people in. It serves no purpose and it puts kids at risk. I would be willing to bet that fires at schools far outnumber shootings at schools over the last 20 years. They just don't get covered because they aren't "news worthy". One of the reasons they aren't news worthy is because we do such a good job of training our students and our staff on how to react in such an event. We have multiple backup systems in place to deal with these events to ensure all the kids get out safely. No injuries/no deaths equals no news coverage.
I have dedicated my life to the safety of the children at my school and am willing to give my life for each and everyone of them. Go talk about lip service to someone else.