Encounter with school group

CHL discussions that do not fit into more specific topics

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stevie_d_64
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Post by stevie_d_64 »

Charles L. Cotton wrote:(My 2009 agenda is already getting full! :thumbsup: )

Chas.
Lucky! ;-)

We pledge to keep you busy!

Geesh, somehow I think there's going to be a huge bills in everyones (at least mine) mailbox very soon! :lol:

As "Wife Unit" would say, "Yer welcome!"
Last edited by stevie_d_64 on Thu May 10, 2007 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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stevie_d_64
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Post by stevie_d_64 »

Jacob Staff wrote:Stevie, when you where the "red" badge, does anyone besides the security guard signing you in even notice the difference?

There is a sign saying you are not allowed to go to a meeting. Is this for a large public meeting or does this cover individual meetings?
Yes, and pretty much no one else notices, if that makes sense...

The first time I did this, I went to get in line to sign in, and the "clerk/guard" was handed without saying a word, my DL and CHL...

At which point their wonderful subtleness kicked in...She yelled over to the Houston Police Officer (thrilled to be pulling this duty :roll: ) that:

"This man has a GUN and a permit!" loud and shrill enough to make the hairs on the back of your neck raise up...But I played it cool...Y'all should have been there...It was actually the most rediculous, yet funny thing to happen to me since I first got my license...

The HPD guy came over, looked at my DL and CHL, flipping it over and over several times, looking at me, and the "plastic" for about 2 minutes (like what am I supposed to do with this?)...

So he handed it back to "Miss Thang" and she proceeded to check me in, with the line growing ever so longer and more impatient with whatever problems I was causing...I got my "red" badge of courage, and thought I was done...

The other girl working the next line asked me:

"SIR! What caliber is your gun?"

I was actually trying to ignore her about this, as I figured it was none of her business...I figured I jumped through enough hoops at that point...

To which she started yelling to get me to respond...I did my best to do so, but I failed...All sorts of "wrong" happened after that...All under the eyes of Mr. HPD back over at his corner of the big desk against the back wall...

I was grabbed, asked the question again...And I said "Why do I have to divulge this information to you?"

It was explained to me that it was "policy" that they record the caliber of the weapon brought into the facility...

I said for what purpose, and who's responsible for the retention and security of that information tying me to my visit to this facility, the fact I am carrying under the CHL law in this state, and the type of "gun" I am carrying...What use is all of that information to whom???

She did not have an answer for me...

I went ahead and told her I was carrying a Desert Eagle .50 semi-automatic handgun... ;-)

I was almost prepared to walk out if they asked to see it... :roll:

Anyway, the rest of the day went well...The "red" badging didn't seem to garner any attention from anyone other than the folks in line that knew I was carrying...

I checked back out, and went back to the office for the rest of the day...

Through my inquiries, I asked about the "detailed" policy and the records retention and other aspects of this bullbutter procedure...To no avail or answer...No one actually knew...

And all I know is that everytime I went after that, the girls were very discrete and polite after that...

I believe the procedures have changed due to mine and Steyrs persistent visitations...

But its an example of why some observe I am so rebellious, ever questioning and stubborn demeanor in how I look at issues effecting our privacy, our overall RKBA...

As for the "sign" you are talking about...I have never seen a sign with instructions like that at this facility...I never had to do anything but sit and wait for signatures in the lobby, or go upstairs to meet with individuals in their offices to discuss engineering issues...
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Post by Crossfire »

Charles L. Cotton wrote:I believe Sludge is correct. Implicit in the statute is that the school owns the "grounds," but this is far from clear. This is why I believe the definition of "premises" needs to be clarified and in relation to schools, I also want to see TPC §46.03(a)(1) clarified/narrowed as well. However, this may well become moot, if CHL authorization is expanded to exclude them from TPC §46.03 as are LEO's, judges, prosecutors, probation officers and others. (My 2009 agenda is already getting full! :thumbsup: )

Chas.
I believe that the intent of the Texas legislature was to protect all school children, wherever they might be, from law abiding CHL holders who might actually protect and defend them in the event of an attack from a non law abiding criminal.

So, as a law abiding CHL holder, wherever there are school children in organized groups, on school property or otherwise, I will retreat. It is my duty. Long live our state legislature.
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jimlongley
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Post by jimlongley »

any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted
I know it's really semantics, and kind of stretchy at that, but I would have to argue that my being present at a place where it would be otherwise legal for me to possess my CH under the authority of my CHL would retain the same status when a school tour group came through.

I am not a part of the group, nor am I there to participate in their activity except possibly by virtue of their observation of whatever business I may be there to conduct. The school is not sponsoring ALL activities taking place at that location, it is merely sponsoring the tour, which is surely "an activity" but it is not the activity that I am there for, and my presence or absence is not part of the sponsored activity.

I would venture to suggest that even if one decides to avoid a location due to the presence of an obvious school tour, that there is also the chance that the tour could arrive later "trapping" the person with no escape that would not involve proximity to the tour group.

Once again we are presented with a piece of legislation that could have implications far beyond what may have been its intent. It may be that the only thing the original author intended was to keep parents from escorting their kids to the prom, or chaperoning a trip to the Alamo, or some other innocuous thing, not innocently being present at city hall, the fire station, or even the park, when the school field trip came through.
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Post by seamusTX »

jimlongley wrote:Once again we are presented with a piece of legislation that could have implications far beyond what may have been its intent. It may be that the only thing the original author intended was to keep parents from escorting their kids to the prom, or chaperoning a trip to the Alamo, or some other innocuous thing,
The general prohibition on carrying in a school or premises where a school-sponsored activity is taking place is in 46.03, which applies to everyone except peace officers and to all weapons.

I don't know how long that part of the law has been in place (I don't even know how to find out), but I'll bet it has existed in some form for a hundred years.

I think the intent was more to prevent people bringing weapons to school sports events. You don't see too many people getting in fights over piano recitals. :smile:

You can see more clearly what the legislature intended in 46.035:
... on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place,...
BTW, this seems redundant in light of 46.03.

- Jim
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Post by stevie_d_64 »

llwatson wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:I believe Sludge is correct. Implicit in the statute is that the school owns the "grounds," but this is far from clear. This is why I believe the definition of "premises" needs to be clarified and in relation to schools, I also want to see TPC §46.03(a)(1) clarified/narrowed as well. However, this may well become moot, if CHL authorization is expanded to exclude them from TPC §46.03 as are LEO's, judges, prosecutors, probation officers and others. (My 2009 agenda is already getting full! :thumbsup: )

Chas.
I believe that the intent of the Texas legislature was to protect all school children, wherever they might be, from law abiding CHL holders who might actually protect and defend them in the event of an attack from a non law abiding criminal.

So, as a law abiding CHL holder, wherever there are school children in organized groups, on school property or otherwise, I will retreat. It is my duty. Long live our state legislature.
We really need to find this "rare" sarcastic emoticon...

It's just seething today for some reason...

If I want people to know I am being sarcastic...(No, not Steve!)

I usually put this at the tail end of my sarcasm...

(/sarcasm)

FYI...
;-)
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shootthesheet
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THE WAY I LEARNED

Post by shootthesheet »

The way I learned is that if the school was the sponsor of the event and controlled the building or grounds then it was off limits. Otherwise, any restaurant or store a CHL holder was at that kids on a sponsored event entered would be breaking the law. It wouldn't matter if the kids were just allowed to go in for a snack after a ball game. I think the key has to do with who has control of the building or grounds at the time of the event. I did some research when my boy was on a field trip and I met them at a city park. I kept my distance as to not be part of the group but still freely enjoyed the park.
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Post by anygunanywhere »

NcongruNt wrote:
stevie_d_64 wrote:
Sludge wrote:I think you have to look at the intent here. The school was on a "field trip". I doubt that the school had rented that building out for their activities, more likely they where invited guests. Now If it was at a private event, say renting a restaurant for a night that was closed down to the pubic and was only available for students, parents and faculty, In my opinion then you would be at fault for carrying in that situation , I think in that situation you would be at fault due to that being a "school sponsored event".

If that makes any sense.
I believe it does...

Lets rattle off a list of situations where a school would rent or lease a facility where we would normally be ok to carry in, yet if it fell into these conditions, we would not be able to at that particular time...

I can think of a few...

Prom

School Athletic Banquets

School Music Department performances

etc etc etc...
This brings up something I thought about, provoked by this thread.

If a school rents a ballroom for a prom event, what does that do to your carry status? Ordinarily, you are fine in a hotel room because you are renting those premises for your use. If a school is renting the banquet hall, does that preclude you from carrying legally, as the "school-sponsored event" takes place in the same facility that you are staying? In reading the law, I would think yes. This doesn't seem right, though. If this is true, I guess I'd have to check all my hotel bookings in advance to make sure there's no school banquet or dance going on.
IMHO, you can push these school sponsored event things and premises things only so far. What if a restaurant banquet room is rented for a dinner?

This just illustrates the fuzzy language and inconsistencies in Texas law.

Keep 'em concealed and use your best judgement. If I checked into a hotel and a prom was going on I doubt it would worry me. I am more concerned with my own and my family's safety and protection than stretching the definition of a "school sponsored event".

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Post by Commander »

llwatson wrote:There was a big yellow bus outside, there were school kids inside.

You don't think maybe this was a school sponsored event?
I've seen school buses idling outside a business when its only the driver running an errand. So I didn't necessarily connect the bus to an activty. The driver could have been at City Hall on business without kids.

I did not see the kids until I was actually inside the building. They were exiting the City Council chambers and entering the foyer where I was waiting for the elevator.
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Post by Commander »

Greybeard wrote:Most of the "city halls" in our area have a court in the building.
Rockwall has a separate Police and Courts Building a few blocks away from City Hall.
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Post by jimlongley »

seamusTX wrote:I think the intent was more to prevent people bringing weapons to school sports events. You don't see too many people getting in fights over piano recitals. :smile:

You can see more clearly what the legislature intended in 46.035:
... on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place,...
BTW, this seems redundant in light of 46.03.

- Jim
Agreed.

BTW, you obviously haven't been to some of the piano recitals that I have, some of the mothers can be downright nasty and physical assault is not out of the question. :o
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Post by seamusTX »

jimlongley wrote:BTW, you obviously haven't been to some of the piano recitals that I have, some of the mothers can be downright nasty and physical assault is not out of the question. :o
You're right. I have been spared that ordeal.

- Jim
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Post by Crossfire »

stevie_d_64 wrote:
We really need to find this "rare" sarcastic emoticon...

It's just seething today for some reason...

If I want people to know I am being sarcastic...(No, not Steve!)

I usually put this at the tail end of my sarcasm...

(/sarcasm)

FYI...
;-)
Scuze me, Stevie! I forgot the protocol!
I'll work on that. :thumbsup:
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