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Re: APD violating CHL law?
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:22 pm
by Jumping Frog
TXtoothpick wrote:I did contact a lawyer for that traffic stop incident who said he thought I didn't have much of a case, or maybe he just wasn't interested. I also contacted the Texas Civil Rights Project which reviewed my case and sent me a rejection letter stating that they "could not represent me in this matter".
More often than not, an attorney is not interested in filing a case for damages against the police when they are no clear cut "damages". If there is no pot of gold, they aren't interested in tracking down the end of that particular rainbow.
More effective with abusive police is to make internal complaints with the objective that there is a training memorandum or bulletin issued to the police force.
Need top change their behavior like changing direction of a supertanker -- slowly, one incident at a time.
Also note that if there are subsequent incidents with the same officers, now you have started the paper trail of a pattern of abuse. If it doesn't exist on paper, it never happened.
Re: APD violating CHL law?
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:59 pm
by bkj
I would file a complaint with DPS
Re: APD violating CHL law?
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:01 pm
by Keith B
bkj wrote:I would file a complaint with DPS
Why? The APD officer didn't do anything that DPS can do anything about. It is an APD issue.
Re: APD violating CHL law?
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:06 pm
by rotor
TXtoothpick wrote:Thank you all for the replies and the welcome.
I did contact a lawyer for that traffic stop incident who said he thought I didn't have much of a case, or maybe he just wasn't interested. I also contacted the Texas Civil Rights Project which reviewed my case and sent me a rejection letter stating that they "could not represent me in this matter".
That incident was not the only time this happened to me recently.
I had another unrelated CHL incident just a few weeks ago in front of the downtown Austin Police Department / Courthouse where a homeless guy was charging at and threatening to physically assault me and bothering other people in the Courthouse parking lot. I was armed at the time and in the parking lot. I decided to approach and wave over 2 officers who were walking across the street close by, right in front of the downtown Austin Police Department. The officers did nothing to the homeless guy who wasn't even approached by the officers, and they said people had complained before about him. But the officers did ask if I was carrying, I said yes, so they disarmed me, unloaded my revolver, took my boxcutter pocket knife, and THEN handcuffed me in broad daylight in front of bystanders until I could show them my CHL license, which they verified and they told me I did everything right. But they then told me that I should have told them that I had a gun on me when I first approached them (as I was being charged at by a crazy homeless guy?). This is a pattern, just like the traffic stop where another officer said essentially the same thing, that I had a duty to tell the officers that "I had a gun" before they even knew what was going on or asked me for my ID or CHL license. Bad guy goes free, I get handcuffed and told that I did something wrong.
I have developed a second-guess attitude as to whether I should even ask police for help now. Will they make up law or berate me or handcuff me in broad daylight for all the world to see, even after disarming me? How humiliating. And then tell me it was my fault because I didn't tell them immediately that "I have a gun" as I am approaching them quickly because I am being chased by a homeless crazy guy?
When citizens need police immediately should their priority be to stop and first explain their CHL status and beg police for protection or explain to them Police Texas CHL statutes? And the homeless guy gets away to repeat threats to people another day - no wonder downtown Austin has a very bad rap recently about violence and people getting assaulted. Law abiding people like me are increasingly avoiding the area and avoiding the police but the riffraff is free to stay and cause problems.
Sorry for the rant.
This doesn't make sense. How did they know to even ask if you were carrying? Was your handgun exposed? I have talked to police before (not in Austin) and none have ever asked if I was carrying. Is it something about you that is a profiling issue? I am just a senior citizen white guy and that may be why I have never been asked.
Re: APD violating CHL law?
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:14 pm
by C-dub
TXToothpick, no offense man, but your first two experiences you post about make you sound like dingleberry cop magnet. I'm not sure I'd want to hang out with you down there.
So, no one thinks his civil rights were violated on the second story where they cuffed him without even giving him the chance to produce ID first?
Re: APD violating CHL law?
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:09 pm
by cb1000rider
Keith B wrote:
In this case as the officer really didn't do anything illegal I would suggest a letter to the Chief. However, Austin's Chief is not the most pro-gun guy out there, so not sure how much good it will do. But if you don't get satisfaction on the corrective action with the officer then you can go to the council members or the Mayor for the resolution.
He's also the boss of the guys same officers downtown, when confronted with an AR in public decide to let those "demonstrators" carry on. APD is a pretty big organization and obviously reactions vary.
You've got nothing to sue for. You were not arrested. Maybe you were inconvenienced and perhaps embarrassed, but officer actions are well "within bounds". You were unarmed and detained as a possible threat. Had they known you had a CHL, they can do the exact same thing.
I do think there is a policy issue here, but to get it addressed, you need to file a complaint, not talk to an attorney. Don't want to file a complaint, then don't expect it to change.
Re: APD violating CHL law?
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:01 pm
by srothstein
I do not think you had a case to sue the police in the first incident, which is why the civil rights project and lawyers were not interested. Before you can sue over a civil rights violation, you must be able to show a harm - damaged reputation, financial loss, physical injury, etc. Federal courts do not consider a violation of your civil rights to be an injury in and of itself, a point where I disagree.
In the case where the officer disarmed you, the officer has the legal authority to do so if he determines his safety or yours requires it. I do not agree with his policies, but they are the officer's to set.
As others have posted, I do recommend filing a complaint with the department. In most cases, I would recommend internal affairs, but Austin is a very special case. While you could contact IA, APD is under a consent decree where they must allow a civilian appointed monitor to also investigate and oversee complaints. This is the office Getsome mentioned in his post. This is also the office that caused an uproar during SXSW by publicly asking for complaints on officers. So, in the case of Austin, I strongly recommend that you mail a letter of complaint to both the police monitor and the IA division at the same time.
To be honest, I have strong doubts that anything will happen to the officer involved. There is a possibility, but I don't think anything will happen. But, my hope is that enough people with CHL's will complain and the monitor will see the pattern and may be able to convince the chief and training to get new policies in place before a major incident occurs. I don't truly have much faith in this happening either, but I can hope.
Re: APD violating CHL law?
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:38 pm
by TexasVet
If the traffic stop was recorded by the officers, could you not get a copy under FOIA ?
Re: APD violating CHL law?
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:45 pm
by cb1000rider
Maybe, but again, that recording would probably be reviewed if a complaint was associated with it in a timely manner. They can't keep them forever.
Requesting it serves what purpose?
Re: APD violating CHL law?
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:29 am
by Jaguar
cb1000rider wrote:Maybe, but again, that recording would probably be reviewed if a complaint was associated with it in a timely manner. They can't keep them forever.
Requesting it serves what purpose?
YouTube fodder, generate public outrage at an officer advising someone incorrectly in the law, public shaming to correct behavior.
Or, to let the OP know the officer was in the right and he should be satisfied.
Depends on the video.
Re: APD violating CHL law?
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:42 am
by Purplehood
I feel like Paul Harvey and wonder what the rest of the story is...
Re: APD violating CHL law?
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:51 am
by TomsTXCHL
Re: APD violating CHL law?
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:33 am
by VMI77
Nothing is going to change because the Austin chief is a Bloomberg supporting anti-gun nut. This kind of behavior may even be encouraged by the department, with some officers going along because they lean that way anyway, and others who are pro-gun taking a common sense approach. I've been stopped several times, by DPS and local police, and never encountered reactions like that or been disarmed.
Re: APD violating CHL law?
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:38 am
by cb1000rider
Guys, don't label an entire police force due to the actions of one - or perhaps a few officers.. Check out the prior post of a video of APD in response to open carry downtown with an AR - that was one of the best displays of officer diligence I've seen. That officer didn't take the bait.
APD is very well paid. I believe they're the top paid police force in Austin. I can tell you that they have some great officers and detectives. I also realize that they're a big organization and as such, they'll have some not-so-good ones too.
I think that most of us agree that the LEOs are within bounds on what happened here and we don't like the described way it played out. The only way to get that resolved is to bring it up via a complaint. And unless I'm mistaken, that hasn't been done yet.
Re: APD violating CHL law?
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:26 pm
by TomsTXCHL
cb1000rider wrote:Guys, don't label an entire police force due to the actions of one - or perhaps a few officers...
Or how about one per week--or so it seems anyway. If I read the San Antonio paper instead of Austin's American-Statesman would I see a similar number of incidents, with the Chief forever trying to explain something one of his officers did?
