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n5wd wrote:Just to clarify, Vol Texan... Was there anything missing from the broken-into bag?

Nothing missing at all.

Vol Texan wrote:

n5wd wrote:Just to clarify, Vol Texan... Was there anything missing from the broken-into bag?

Nothing missing at all.

Maybe they weren't Sig fans.

jmra wrote:

Vol Texan wrote:

n5wd wrote:Just to clarify, Vol Texan... Was there anything missing from the broken-into bag?

Nothing missing at all.

Maybe they weren't Sig fans.

I don't understand your comment - I've never heard that combination of words put together before?

Vol Texan wrote:......
In Houston, we deplaned and waited for our baggage at the carousel. After three of our four bags arrived, we had a long wait for the fourth one (the Pelican case). The carousel finished once and then started again (presumably with the remainder of the bags from our flight). When it stopped again, all others from our flight were gone, and we were still short the Pelican case with the checked firearms.

I visited the lost baggage office and inquired, and was told, “We have it here for you”.

I asked why they had held it for me, and not provided me the courtesy of letting me know it was taken off.

She explained they took it off because it had firearms in it. (This still does not address the lack of courtesy to the passengers who thought we’d lost a bag for quite a while as the remainder of the passengers left with theirs).

But then, I explained that I had TWO bags with firearms … why hold only this one, but let the other one through?

She explained that this one was the only one they knew of.

Flying Southwest into San Antonio, if I have my long gun case it always ends up at the luggage office. If it's just my bag with my handguns it comes down the carousel. I think they just identify it as a firearms case and pull it aside for security. They may not even *know* that there's firearms.

I don't mind as it means I don't have to rush to baggage to make sure I'm there when it comes off. My one worry is that it'll beat me one day and someone will decide to take a chance. Maybe next time I'll just pack my clothes in my long rifle case, not declare anything, and see what happens.

jmorris wrote:Maybe next time I'll just pack my clothes in my long rifle case, not declare anything, and see what happens.

I was thinking of that very same thing. Your very own personal luggage service.

C-dub wrote:

jmorris wrote:Maybe next time I'll just pack my clothes in my long rifle case, not declare anything, and see what happens.

I was thinking of that very same thing. Your very own personal luggage service.

The big golf cases were always exempt from the weight limit, and being oversize went to the luggage office instead of the carousel, more than a few people did just that. Saw some interesting things on the x-ray.

sbrawley wrote:

Vol Texan wrote:

LDB415 wrote:I imagine you've already done so and I'll be interested to hear Jeff Smisek's reply to your correspondence with him. I'm sure we'll all be interested to hear updates as things progress. Good luck with it.

Yes, I have his direct contact info. I don't use it often, but when I do, I do get a non-canned response from one of his lackeys, or from him directly. That's one of the benefits of spending so much $$ per year with them, I guess.

My 9 emails (one with text, and the other 8 with photos) have hit his desk as well. I wonder if I'll get a personal response this time, or one of his staff?[/quote]
Considering the severity of the issue at hand, I'm betting on a personal response.

So, did you get a personal response?

I'm curious about this too. How did the airline respond?

Stories like this, and others talking about the higher rate of "misplaced" bags that have firearms have always made me think twice about flying with guns. Hope they cover the damage.

Along the same lines, I noticed the OP stated he used non-TSA locks on the cases. I was under the impression all locks had to be TSA approved. Is this not the case with firearms (and first I thought this is why they broke the Nanovault but then I noticed the Pelican case had non-TSA locks as well)?

jimlongley wrote: There is not supposed to be ANY external marking identifying a bag with a checked firearm..

Jim,,, that was my understanding as well.. and pretty sure I have posted that reg on this forum in the past that stated as much///..
YET tonight I went and looked at the TSA site and it stated "If a locked container alarms during screening and is not marked as containing a declared firearm, TSA will cut the lock in order to resolve the alarm." http://www.tsa.gov/traveler-information ... ammunition" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ahhhhh, bag marked as containing a firearm? WHAT?

If that is now policy... you can bet the owner of a broken into formerly locked container will simply be told the bag alarmed, they could not locate them, and so TSA "HAD TO" brake open the container to "clear the alarm"

E.Marquez wrote:

jimlongley wrote: There is not supposed to be ANY external marking identifying a bag with a checked firearm..

Jim,,, that was my understanding as well.. and pretty sure I have posted that reg on this forum in the past that stated as much///..
YET tonight I went and looked at the TSA site and it stated "If a locked container alarms during screening and is not marked as containing a declared firearm, TSA will cut the lock in order to resolve the alarm." http://www.tsa.gov/traveler-information ... ammunition" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ahhhhh, bag marked as containing a firearm? WHAT?

If that is now policy... you can bet the owner of a broken into formerly locked container will simply be told the bag alarmed, they could not locate them, and so TSA "HAD TO" brake open the container to "clear the alarm"

When I started with TSA we were manually screening many bags at the bag check station and there was no need for any markings (it would have been different at other airports.) When we finally got enough x-ray machines to cover everything they were located near the ticket counter, so the airline implemented a policy of the ticket agent telling anyone checking a firearm to go over to the window and wait for their bag to be passed (also very different at other airports.)

At some point, between passenger complaints of delays (remember, YOU are supposed to get to the airport in plenty of time) and other stuff, someone instituted a policy of the ticket agents marking the baggage tag (a slash or check with a Sharpie) to signify that the bag contained a declared firearm.

That policy ended when some passenger discovered the mark and objected to it, leading to a letter from the very top of TSA to the effect that bags would not be externally identified as containing a firearm, and that it was not our job to look for firearms anyway, so any and all firearms noted in the x-ray were to be essentially ignored unless an "unresolvable" alarm occurred. If an alarm involved a firearm, the owner of the bag was to be contacted so they could unlock it for inspection and the bag was only to be broken in to if the owner could not be located. (I have seen a person that I knew owned the bag sit in the coffee shop chatting with his wife and ignoring the pages for him, by name, we could see him from the screening area.)

So here is where we get into semantic difficulty. If you read back a few bullets, you will find:

"The firearm must be in a hard-sided container that is locked. A locked container is defined as one that completely secures the firearm from being accessed. Locked cases that can be pulled open with little effort cannot be brought aboard the aircraft.

"If firearms are not properly declared or packaged, TSA will provide the checked bag to law enforcement for resolution with the airline. If the issue is resolved, law enforcement will release the bag to TSA so screening may be completed.

"TSA must resolve all alarms in checked baggage. If a locked container containing a firearm alarms, TSA will contact the airline, who will make a reasonable attempt to contact the owner and advise the passenger to go to the screening location. If contact is not made, the container will not be placed on the aircraft.

"If a locked container alarms during screening and is not marked as containing a declared firearm, TSA will cut the lock in order to resolve the alarm."

The container referred to in their clumsy language is that containing the firearm, which is then inside the checked bag. The "Declaration of Firearm" tag is placed inside the checked bag with the container, marking it as containing a declared firearm. This scenario obviously fails if we are presented with a big gun case, or a hard sided suitcase with a firearm loose inside, both of which are proper. I have even seen a big golf container with several guns inside, but federal regulations, not TSA rules, state that there is to be no external marking, so in those cases the tag goes inside the container.

Usually what would happen (again, at my airport) was, we would see a "threat" in a bag. If the threat was a firearm we would follow normal threat resolution procedures, even removing the container and re running the bag to see if that cleared it. If it did clear it, then the container was put back in the bag and sent on its way, no further action necessary. If the container was a stand alone, gun case or hard sided suitcase, once again we followed a procedure of attempting to locate the passenger before actually breaking in. In the three years I spent doing that thankless task I never saw any container that was packed inside a suitcase forced open. I did see several stand alone gun cases forced open including one very fancy case that contained loose ammo (horrors!) and the owner could not be located (he and his hunting party checked their bags and then left the airport to go get breakfast because they still had two hours before their flight. His gun did not go with him in the end, because he had no container for the loose ammo, which he attempted to fix by throwing it in the trash (NOT going to happen) and the case was damaged in the process of opening it.

Sig'N'Tell wrote:I'm curious about this too. How did the airline respond?

No final disposition on this just yet. They're still awaiting the TSA response to see what their action will be, I guess.

madwildcat wrote:Stories like this, and others talking about the higher rate of "misplaced" bags that have firearms have always made me think twice about flying with guns. Hope they cover the damage.

Along the same lines, I noticed the OP stated he used non-TSA locks on the cases. I was under the impression all locks had to be TSA approved. Is this not the case with firearms (and first I thought this is why they broke the Nanovault but then I noticed the Pelican case had non-TSA locks as well)?

Non-TSA locks on the hard-sided Pelican case. This case made it just fine, with the declaration inside the case.
TSA locks were on the soft-sided case that also included the Nanovault. The declaration was outside the Nanovault, inside the suitcase. The Nanovault was the only thing destroyed by the TSA.

darn shame

Vol Texan wrote:

madwildcat wrote:Stories like this, and others talking about the higher rate of "misplaced" bags that have firearms have always made me think twice about flying with guns. Hope they cover the damage.

Along the same lines, I noticed the OP stated he used non-TSA locks on the cases. I was under the impression all locks had to be TSA approved. Is this not the case with firearms (and first I thought this is why they broke the Nanovault but then I noticed the Pelican case had non-TSA locks as well)?

Non-TSA locks on the hard-sided Pelican case. This case made it just fine, with the declaration inside the case.
TSA locks were on the soft-sided case that also included the Nanovault. The declaration was outside the Nanovault, inside the suitcase. The Nanovault was the only thing destroyed by the TSA.

This is correct. At one point in time, the TSA regulations specifically stated that the hard-sided case should not have a TSA lock on it. According to American Airlines' website "Firearms will only be accepted if unloaded and in a locked, hard-sided container such as a rifle case. TSA approved locks are accepted." To me, "accepted" implies "but not required". The hard-sided case must be locked, but the lock does not have to be TSA-approved. If the case is placed inside another piece of luggage (eg. duffel bag), then the luggage must be locked with a TSA-compliant lock (or left unlocked altogether). I flew with AA last week with a small gun safe inside my checked bag. The TSA agent asked if the gun safe was TSA-compliant but didn't have any objections when I said it wasn't. As an aside, she gave me an earful about not locking the bag itself; she wasn't rude - just kept insisting that it would be a really good idea and I should use one next time. (For the record, the gun safe has a security cable that attaches to the bag. To get the safe, you have to take the bag as well - or use bolt cutters.)

On a related note, is there any penalty for failing to declare a firearm? American wouldn't let me use the self-checkin kiosk and made me wait in line for the full-service agent. The line was quite long and (combined with other factors) caused me to almost miss my flight. Would it have been better to simply use the self-checkin and not declare the firearm? Sure, the TSA would page me and make me open the bag for them, but that wold have taken less time than waiting in line at the terminal.