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The Annoyed Man wrote: I'm feeling ignored.

The Annoyed Man wrote:Heck, I'm {{{gasp}}} not even a NASCAR fan!

Alright there TAM...I was going to let it slide...as there's a difference between "following" and "not being a fan"...but you had to bring it up *again*...

You could do penance by changing out my tires...you can even use the rolling shop chair...AND...I'll turn the air gun on for ya! I promise not to time you...

The Annoyed Man wrote:

PUCKER wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:I don't follow NASCAR.

Uh oh...that's grounds for Texas Citizenship Relinquishment!

I'll admit that watching a bunch of cars going around in a circle is GREAT for helping with the Sunday afternoon nap....ie, I call it NAPCAR! Watching them at Watkins Glen, Infineon and then the Nationwide Cars at Road America is what I like! They can turn "right" when they have to LOL!

I'm feeling ignored.

The Annoyed Man wrote:Heck, I'm {{{gasp}}} not even a NASCAR fan!

Well, I grew up in Bristol, with its famous short track. In the Tennessee school system, we learned to count like this, "One, Two, Dale Earnhardt, Four, Five." Yet, with all that indoctrination, I'm not a fan either. Just never understood the fun of watching people drive in circles for hours on end.

NASCAR - Non Athletic Sport Centered Around Rednecks

Some people are smart enough not to play in traffic. Some people aren't.

The Annoyed Man wrote:apparently, jimlongley beat me to the same conclusion. As is usual, someone said in fewer words than I did.

Yeah, well, as an old stock car racer, we didn't have as many twists and turns to negotiate as you road racers, so our attention spans are shorter. Left, left, left, left . . .

Sweet Daddy Dee: [talking about NASCAR] NASCAR, that's another dumb cracka sport.
Jeff: NASCAR's very popular.
Sweet Daddy: I know that, I just don't get it. A bunch of grown white men, goin' 500 miles in a circle! What the heck!? What kinda three and a half hours is this? [imitating viewers] "Look, they're making a left turn! Oh they're makin' another left turn! Oh they're makin' another left turn! I wonder what's gonna happen next!" [imitating commentators] "Let's go to commercials. Come back in 10 minutes - you ain't gonna miss a thing!"

Just to make sure, does everyone realize that the death did not occur in a NASCAR race? Stewart drives professionally in NASCAR and, for his own pleasure, in other events like that one that ended so badly. The Sprint Cup does not involve sprint cars. Ward was killed in a local race under Canandaigua Motorsports Park and Empire Super Sprint rules.

Stewart's behavior in NASCAR might have carried over, of course, but NASCAR's format and rules really aren't involved here.

Sidebar:

No, I'm not really a NASCAR fan.

jimlongley wrote:Could Stewart have avoided hitting him? Yes, if he had ceased to race, but he had no real way of knowing that Ward was waiting to jump him as he came back around, he was racing and the tangle had happened a long time ago in racing terms, but coming off that turn, racing, it is doubtful to me that Stewart even knew Ward was there until the very last instant.

Engine sounds, from which car? There were other cars on the track, and even Stewart's car could have "burped" just because he was positioning himself for the straight, still not having noticed Ward.

Holes and ruts make the cars dance.

In my old racing mind, Ward was co-author of his own fate.

There's no doubt that Ward's actions led directly to his death.

A couple of corrections. They were not racing. They were under yellow because of Ward's crash. On the video you can see a car in front of Tony pass Ward, and then Tony guns his engine just as Ward comes down to confront him. You can clearly tell it's Tony's car, because all the cars are under yellow, and none of them are making much noise at all. The sound corresponds precisely with the movement of his car.

Sprint cars are often steered by gunning the engine, and it's as equally likely that Tony was trying to avoid hitting Ward as it is that he was trying to give Ward a "dirt shower". Given those circumstances, I see enough reasonable doubt to find him not guilty. The Grand Jury depends entirely on what evidence is presented. If there is no one to testify that sprint cars are steered by gunning the engine and causing the car to slide, he could very well be indicted. I suspect that, if it goes to trial, he will be found not guilty due to reasonable doubt.

threoh8 wrote:Just to make sure, does everyone realize that the death did not occur in a NASCAR race? Stewart drives professionally in NASCAR and, for his own pleasure, in other events like that one that ended so badly. The Sprint Cup does not involve sprint cars. Ward was killed in a local race under Canandaigua Motorsports Park and Empire Super Sprint rules.

Stewart's behavior in NASCAR might have carried over, of course, but NASCAR's format and rules really aren't involved here.

Sidebar:

No, I'm not really a NASCAR fan.

And the back stretch at "The Can" as we used to call it when I was a kid racing there, is almost a curve in itself. You hardly get straightened out at all from two before you're in three, and it was there that Ward challenged Stewart. The track is, and has always been, a "dirt" track rather than a "clay" track, which refers to the composition of the surface. Dirt tracks rut and pothole much more than clay tracks.

And I have been a NASCAR fan, and general "stock car racing" fan since I was a kid with three local stock cars HQed within a mile of my house, including the Tollgate Special, which was for a time driven by my friend Don Mactavish, who was killed at Daytona in 1969.

threoh8 wrote:Just to make sure, does everyone realize that the death did not occur in a NASCAR race? Stewart drives professionally in NASCAR and, for his own pleasure, in other events like that one that ended so badly. The Sprint Cup does not involve sprint cars. Ward was killed in a local race under Canandaigua Motorsports Park and Empire Super Sprint rules.

Stewart's behavior in NASCAR might have carried over, of course, but NASCAR's format and rules really aren't involved here.

Sidebar:

No, I'm not really a NASCAR fan.

I didn't know that. I always thought that Outlaw and Sprint cars were a subdivision of NASCAR, kind of like AMA or FIM motorcycle racing have different tiers of classes, with the lower classes acting as sort of a "minor league" farm system which produces riders for the premier Grand Prix and Superbike classes.

baldeagle wrote:There's no doubt that Ward's actions led directly to his death.

A couple of corrections. They were not racing. They were under yellow because of Ward's crash. On the video you can see a car in front of Tony pass Ward, and then Tony guns his engine just as Ward comes down to confront him. You can clearly tell it's Tony's car, because all the cars are under yellow, and none of them are making much noise at all. The sound corresponds precisely with the movement of his car.

Sprint cars are often steered by gunning the engine, and it's as equally likely that Tony was trying to avoid hitting Ward as it is that he was trying to give Ward a "dirt shower". Given those circumstances, I see enough reasonable doubt to find him not guilty. The Grand Jury depends entirely on what evidence is presented. If there is no one to testify that sprint cars are steered by gunning the engine and causing the car to slide, he could very well be indicted. I suspect that, if it goes to trial, he will be found not guilty due to reasonable doubt.

Good post. I'm interested in this tho not enough yet to have studied any video, so I want to ask you: is it clear that TS' view of the track and KW was blocked by another car that was in front of him at the time he came around/upon the situation?

If not, I would vote to convict, even with knowing cars can be steered by gunning the engine.

TomsTXCHL wrote:

baldeagle wrote:There's no doubt that Ward's actions led directly to his death.

A couple of corrections. They were not racing. They were under yellow because of Ward's crash. On the video you can see a car in front of Tony pass Ward, and then Tony guns his engine just as Ward comes down to confront him. You can clearly tell it's Tony's car, because all the cars are under yellow, and none of them are making much noise at all. The sound corresponds precisely with the movement of his car.

Sprint cars are often steered by gunning the engine, and it's as equally likely that Tony was trying to avoid hitting Ward as it is that he was trying to give Ward a "dirt shower". Given those circumstances, I see enough reasonable doubt to find him not guilty. The Grand Jury depends entirely on what evidence is presented. If there is no one to testify that sprint cars are steered by gunning the engine and causing the car to slide, he could very well be indicted. I suspect that, if it goes to trial, he will be found not guilty due to reasonable doubt.

Good post. I'm interested in this tho not enough yet to have studied any video, so I want to ask you: is it clear that TS' view of the track and KW was blocked by another car that was in front of him at the time he came around/upon the situation?

If not, I would vote to convict, even with knowing cars can be steered by gunning the engine.

Canandaigua, being just short of a half mile around, does not have long straight stretches like bigger paved tracks, the back stretch, although nominally straight for about 1/10 of a mile, really is just a shallower curve. Coming off turn two (turn one and two are essentially one long curve) TS' vision was probably not obstructed by the car in front of him, but he was coming out of what would be considered a 180 degree turn into the long sliding turn of the back stretch. Gunning the engine breaks the rear tires loose and the back stretch is negotiated in a long controlled slide, setting you up for a good entry into turn three. Steering is a combination of controlled slide (accomplished by gunning the engine to break the back end loose) and steering with those teeny little tires up front. Under caution, he probably should not have been breaking the tires loose, but habit . . .

All of this sliding tears up the surface. On dirt tracks, usually a composition of local dirt and imported clay, the potholes and ruts change with every pass. On clay tracks, which are a harder surface. conditions don't change much during each heat. Both kinds of tracks are "groomed" between heat races.

These tracks, being very small and crowded, usually have several "heat races" with the top finishers moving into the "feature" race later in the card, as well as a "consie" (consolation) race for those who didn't place high enough to race in the feature. Usually heat races are 10 laps, with the consie being maybe 20 (and sometimes winners from the consie advance to the feature) and the feature 50 laps. I believe the race with the accident was a heat race. In my racing days I spent more time running in consies than in features.

BTW, Stewart wrecked in a Sprint Car race in 2013 and broke his leg badly, leading to him not participating in ANY racing for the rest of the season.

Proving once again I suppose, that "nuthin's ever easy" and the GJ will have lots of hand-wringing to do, provided the presentations are balanced ("for every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert") and no one comes forward saying "TS told me he he only meant to scare the dude".

Keith B wrote:NASCAR - Non Athletic Sport Centered Around Rednecks

LOL...I know that you're only teasing about the non athletic part...but you should try sitting in a 140-150 degree tube frame box on wheels and pulling high g's every corner! I only do it for sprint races (usually 25 minutes, sometimes 35) and it's a whipping...cannot imagine 3-4 hours of it!

TomsTXCHL wrote:Proving once again I suppose, that "nuthin's ever easy" and the GJ will have lots of hand-wringing to do, provided the presentations are balanced ("for every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert") and no one comes forward saying "TS told me he he only meant to scare the dude".

I don't believe there is any defensive or opposing view presented to a GJ. I think it is a completely one sided event.