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Abraham wrote:A friend of mine told me of a law school male classmate who had the operation and then became a lesbian.

If that's not confusing, nothing is...

Oh yeah, he changed his name from Phil to Phyllis. Cute.

On the practical side: No operation/hormone ingestion/adams apple shaving/voice coaching/hair style change/choice of clothing is actually going to "change" someone into a woman if they were born a man and vice versa, but they can be butchered and medicated into a Frankenstein-ian approximation of what they're "attempting" to achieve...

Frankly, I find the so-called transgendered a failure to recognize mental illness and treat it as such.

If someone were to claim that since birth, they just knew they were actually a giraffe would surgeons be clamoring to make that a person as close an approximation to a giraffe as they could?

Not likely.

They would counsel that person to seek mental health treatment.

So-called "Pre-op transgendered" need the same counseling and mental health help, not butchery and all the rest of the Frankenstein treatment.

Though I still straddle the fence on the subject, I like your argument. Good post.

Its a private business. Unless it breaks the law they can do what the want.

This is a non-issue as the rarity of it is Lotto like.

I read some where that a fairly large percentage of men who have had the surgery are not satisfied customers a few years later and wished they had not done it. IE regrets. Apparently that view is not appreciated by the "t" community and they are quickly banned from forums and boards where that view could be expressed and potentially guide someone who was considering the operation.

Considering that this is probably now a small industry, it is not surprising.

Cedar Park Dad wrote:Its a private business. Unless it breaks the law they can do what the want.

This is a non-issue as the rarity of it is Lotto like.

I know one trans woman. I do not know a lottery winner. But yes it is rare.

In this case, it distroyed his family despite his assurances in an email that his wife was supportive of his decision. I'm sure his two teenaged sons will worry about this decision and their own sexuality for the rest of their lives. To me, this was the best reason to continue the life he started and lived for 45 years, despite his future personal unhappiness.

It's all about money for the docs involved.

philip964 wrote:

Cedar Park Dad wrote:Its a private business. Unless it breaks the law they can do what the want.

This is a non-issue as the rarity of it is Lotto like.

I know one trans woman. I do not know a lottery winner. But yes it is rare.

In this case, it distroyed his family despite his assurances in an email that his wife was supportive of his decision. I'm sure his two teenaged sons will worry about this decision and their own sexuality for the rest of their lives. To me, this was the best reason to continue the life he started and lived for 45 years, despite his future personal unhappiness.

it may destroy his/her family, but the impact on the average gym goer is nonexistent. Can't be worse than the old guys at my gym (and I are one). Old guys are why god invented clothing.

philip964 wrote:I read some where that a fairly large percentage of men who have had the surgery are not satisfied customers a few years later and wished they had not done it. IE regrets. Apparently that view is not appreciated by the "t" community and they are quickly banned from forums and boards where that view could be expressed and potentially guide someone who was considering the operation.

Considering that this is probably now a small industry, it is not surprising.

I agree with Cedar Park Dad that these people can do whatever they want, but there IS one thing I find troubling about attitudes. Life altering surgery which is irreversible should NEVER be undertaken without a properly (and honestly) informed basis. It takes both negative and positive reviews to have an informed understanding of things. I am overweight and have struggled to lose weight and keep it off. (There are background issues for why it has been a struggle, which don't need to be explored here in this post.) I recently investigated the possibilities surrounding weight-loss surgery, including speaking to my doctor about it, who endorsed my doing it. I also spoke to 7 or 8 people I know personally who have undergone it. Fully half of them either didn't lose the weight, or they lost it and gained it back........which taught me that the surgery is not a panacea. You still have to do your part, and some of those surgical techniques are irreversible. Instead, I chose to follow another course of treatment, under a doctor's care, and I am now beginning to lose weight again.

The thing is that the individual decision to pursue weight loss surgery is not really a politically charged issue, and so it was easy for me to make my decision for me, without having to get lectured by advocates for one side or the other. Not so for politically charged issues like transgender surgery, or abortion.

It seems like the most vocal abortion advocates hate the idea of counseling that lays out ALL of the options for the pregnant woman, options which might (but not necessarily) steer that woman to choose to either keep her baby, or put it up for adoption. It seems like any talk of doing anything other than offing the baby immediately gets pro-abortion advocates up in arms. Well, you can't make a reasonably informed choice if you are denied information about all the options available to you. In the end, the advocates aren't about choice, they are about abortion.

I only mention the comparison between weight loss surgery and abortion to make the similar point about transgender surgery. It sounds like the transgender boards you mentioned do not exist so that people who are exploring the possibilities of a life-changing irreversible surgery can make an informed decision. The advocates are not there to inform, they are there to demand affirmation....... which is morally reprehensible.

I say morally reprehensible, NOT because of my own personal views about transgender surgery specifically, but morally reprehensible for urging an undecided person to make an irreversible and life altering choice WITHOUT complete information. This doesn't surprise me though because it is exactly the same kind of thinking as "we have to pass it to find out what's in it".

The Annoyed Man wrote:

philip964 wrote:I read some where that a fairly large percentage of men who have had the surgery are not satisfied customers a few years later and wished they had not done it. IE regrets. Apparently that view is not appreciated by the "t" community and they are quickly banned from forums and boards where that view could be expressed and potentially guide someone who was considering the operation.

Considering that this is probably now a small industry, it is not surprising.

I agree with Cedar Park Dad that these people can do whatever they want, but there IS one thing I find troubling about attitudes. Life altering surgery which is irreversible should NEVER be undertaken without a properly (and honestly) informed basis.

Agreed. I've taken a very healthy interest in making sure no one but a doctor for verifiable serious medical need ever punctures me. I'm too delicate.

As for the underlying trans thing, I don't understand it, but thats ok. I don't understand a lot of things, like... golf.

Cedar Park Dad wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:

philip964 wrote:I read some where that a fairly large percentage of men who have had the surgery are not satisfied customers a few years later and wished they had not done it. IE regrets. Apparently that view is not appreciated by the "t" community and they are quickly banned from forums and boards where that view could be expressed and potentially guide someone who was considering the operation.

Considering that this is probably now a small industry, it is not surprising.

I agree with Cedar Park Dad that these people can do whatever they want, but there IS one thing I find troubling about attitudes. Life altering surgery which is irreversible should NEVER be undertaken without a properly (and honestly) informed basis.

Agreed. I've taken a very healthy interest in making sure no one but a doctor for verifiable serious medical need ever punctures me. I'm too delicate.

As for the underlying trans thing, I don't understand it, but thats ok. I don't understand a lot of things, like... golf.

Golf cannot be understood. There are no guns. Skeet, on the other hand, is perfectly understandable.

Abraham wrote: Frankly, I find the so-called transgendered a failure to recognize mental illness and treat it as such.

If someone were to claim that since birth, they just knew they were actually a giraffe would surgeons be clamoring to make that a person as close an approximation to a giraffe as they could?

Not likely.

You don't even have to go as far as otherkin. (Yes, that's a term for people who think they're animals.) There are people who think they need to have their limbs amputated in order to be the person they think they should be:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apotemnophilia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Surprisingly, it appears that apotemnophilia is still considered to be a mental illness. But decide you should have your sexual organs mutilated/removed/inverted/whatever instead of your arm or leg chopped off and supposedly it's completely normal, don't question it you hater.

Cedar Park Dad wrote:Its a private business. Unless it breaks the law they can do what the want.
This is a non-issue as the rarity of it is Lotto like.

That's exactly right. If you own the business, you should be allowed to make the rules. Those who don't like the rules should chose to take their business elsewhere. That's as American as it gets.
I don't care if it's enforcing some liberal viewpoint (like this one) or some ultra-conservative viewpoint - if you own it, you should get to chose.

When I worked in College Station, we had a trans-gendered person apply. He (she?) was paraded around through the process and I can tell you had ZERO chance of being hired based on the comments that I heard, regardless of qualifications. It's not a choice that can be made without substantial consequences. I wouldn't want to wear those shoes, regardless of heel type.

The Annoyed Man wrote:

Cedar Park Dad wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:

philip964 wrote:I read some where that a fairly large percentage of men who have had the surgery are not satisfied customers a few years later and wished they had not done it. IE regrets. Apparently that view is not appreciated by the "t" community and they are quickly banned from forums and boards where that view could be expressed and potentially guide someone who was considering the operation.

Considering that this is probably now a small industry, it is not surprising.

I agree with Cedar Park Dad that these people can do whatever they want, but there IS one thing I find troubling about attitudes. Life altering surgery which is irreversible should NEVER be undertaken without a properly (and honestly) informed basis.

Agreed. I've taken a very healthy interest in making sure no one but a doctor for verifiable serious medical need ever punctures me. I'm too delicate.

As for the underlying trans thing, I don't understand it, but thats ok. I don't understand a lot of things, like... golf.

Golf cannot be understood. There are no guns. Skeet, on the other hand, is perfectly understandable.

I'm so glad I ran faster than the golfer when I tried to combine the two...

puma guy wrote:So, I wonder, how often can one change their gender identity?

Facebook now had a half-dozen new "terms" for just these sorts of people, and I had a run-in with one of them on a friend's page a week or two ago. She apparently identified as a he some days, she others, and wanted unisex bathrooms all around to accommodate, arguing that "gender-biased" restrooms were a cause of rape. It was a truly moment when THAT came up.

cb1000rider wrote: When I worked in College Station, we had a trans-gendered person apply. He (she?) was paraded around through the process and I can tell you had ZERO chance of being hired based on the comments that I heard, regardless of qualifications. It's not a choice that can be made without substantial consequences. I wouldn't want to wear those shoes, regardless of heel type.

Pretty crazy when you have to check the application to find out what "it" is and get more confused.

As societal progressives drag the common man further and further down the rabbit hole, it is easy to forget how far we have actually fallen until we look back and see our tracks fading off into the horizon. Personally I am not going along with the whole "transgender" game. It doesn't matter what you cut off, or sew on, or how you dress or speak, or how many chemicals you inject into your system, you can't change your gender. A transgender man will always be just a man in a wig. Everyone else can call him whatever they feel like, but I am not playing along. I won't abuse him, or be cruel or hateful, but I won't lie to him either and call him "she".