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[quote="oohrah"]This is not Nazi Germany. A LEO cannot stop you on the street and ask for ID without probable cause that you are a person of interest or a suspect. IANAL or something like that.[/quote]



Uhhhhh yes they can... If they are conducting an official investigation into a crime yes they can...

I believe I covered that.

A more interesting question would be .
What would your excuse be to NOT produce your CHL and allow to be disarmed if in a restricted area unless you are attempting to circumvent the law ?

Why does being "disarmed" keep cropping up?

That's not part of the OP's question.

Based on what I've seen of the way police handle open carry protest morons, I won't hesitate to chat with a policeman about guns. As much deference they show those dweebs, I don't see how I'd get anything but a courteous, fair shake.

If it happens, I plan to try to answer gently.

Am I carrying a firearm? I'm doing my best to lawfully enjoy my CHL privileges, so, yes, that's correct.

I'm trying to school myself against using any word like "gun" in case there is anyone in earshot who might over react.

At that point, hopefully the conversation would wander into more general talk of favorite calibers or firearms.

Either way, when I tuck my little gunmetal teddy bear away for a night on the town I'm making a commitment to prevent escalations. The trigger is the last resort of failed diplomacy, and if I'm willing to work with a scumbag to prevent a fight without regard for my ego, why would I not offer a policeman the same? I'm pretty sure it would be a lot less challenging than dealing with a belligerent drunk.

Like the sailor's advice to never sail into water you can't sail out of, avoiding places with belligerent drunks probably also keeps me out of places with cops on high alert.

As to the civil issues of probable cause and related notions, that's something I'll fight with my word processor, later, if need be.

A LEO can ASK you anything they feel like asking:

- "can I see your ID?"
- "do you know what time it is?"
- "got a light?"

This is a consensual contact. No police power is needed nor utilized. You're perfectly within your rights to answer the question amicably, or say "Mmm, I smell bacon, and I don't talk to pigs", or simply offer no verbal response whatsoever.

The difference between ASKing and DEMANDing may seem like splitting hairs, but it makes all the difference in the world legally.

Ruark wrote:An amendment that came up to HB 910 reduces the penalty for carrying past a 30.06 sign to a Class C misdemeanor. If you're given notice and asked to leave and then don't leave, it's a Class A, with arrest/jail/loss of CHL, etc.

If you're completely concealed, can an LEO walk up to you and ask if you're CCW, because he sees that slight bulge under your shirt? Do you have to respond? I'm assume you do, otherwise you'll start some big mess.

I'm visualizing a situation where a store employee sees your bulge, asks if you're CCW, and you tell him it's none of his business, so he calls the police: "I think there's a guy carrying a gun in the store...." and the cop shows up and approaches you with the question.

If I were an employee (or a business owner), and it was my job to ask someone if they were carrying; if they responded "it's none of your business", they would be told to leave.

I'm a big believer in the second amendment. I'm also a big believer in personal property rights. It is their business.

ScooterSissy wrote:

Ruark wrote:An amendment that came up to HB 910 reduces the penalty for carrying past a 30.06 sign to a Class C misdemeanor. If you're given notice and asked to leave and then don't leave, it's a Class A, with arrest/jail/loss of CHL, etc.

If you're completely concealed, can an LEO walk up to you and ask if you're CCW, because he sees that slight bulge under your shirt? Do you have to respond? I'm assume you do, otherwise you'll start some big mess.

I'm visualizing a situation where a store employee sees your bulge, asks if you're CCW, and you tell him it's none of his business, so he calls the police: "I think there's a guy carrying a gun in the store...." and the cop shows up and approaches you with the question.

If I were an employee (or a business owner), and it was my job to ask someone if they were carrying; if they responded "it's none of your business", they would be told to leave.

I'm a big believer in the second amendment. I'm also a big believer in personal property rights. It is their business.

What would you do if they said NO? They still might (unknown to you be carrying). I guess the right process for an employee is just ask everyone suspected to be carrying to leave. Then again if you ask an offduty LEO to leave, and he asks why, and you say carrying, he may just tell you to pound sand. So much for Texas's grand respect for property rights.

Personally i would come up with a better answer than " that is none of your business". If someone asked me if i was carrying i would say no. if you say "thats none of your business"; that sounds like a yes to me.

The problem with the whole "probable cause" thing with me is police won't normally tell you why they are asking you questions. Even if they legally have to tell you doesn't mean they will. And really its not that hard for them to make up something that will fit there agenda. But I also don't trust any police officer to tell the truth.

ScottDLS wrote:

ScooterSissy wrote:

Ruark wrote:An amendment that came up to HB 910 reduces the penalty for carrying past a 30.06 sign to a Class C misdemeanor. If you're given notice and asked to leave and then don't leave, it's a Class A, with arrest/jail/loss of CHL, etc.

If you're completely concealed, can an LEO walk up to you and ask if you're CCW, because he sees that slight bulge under your shirt? Do you have to respond? I'm assume you do, otherwise you'll start some big mess.

I'm visualizing a situation where a store employee sees your bulge, asks if you're CCW, and you tell him it's none of his business, so he calls the police: "I think there's a guy carrying a gun in the store...." and the cop shows up and approaches you with the question.

If I were an employee (or a business owner), and it was my job to ask someone if they were carrying; if they responded "it's none of your business", they would be told to leave.

I'm a big believer in the second amendment. I'm also a big believer in personal property rights. It is their business.

What would you do if they said NO? They still might (unknown to you be carrying). I guess the right process for an employee is just ask everyone suspected to be carrying to leave. Then again if you ask an offduty LEO to leave, and he asks why, and you say carrying, he may just tell you to pound sand. So much for Texas's grand respect for property rights.

I'm confused by your response. If the person said "no" when asked the leave, the response is pretty simple. Call the police. A business owner (and their representatives) can ask anyone to leave for any reason, with the exception being the "protected classes".

ScooterSissy wrote:

ScottDLS wrote:

ScooterSissy wrote:

Ruark wrote:An amendment that came up to HB 910 reduces the penalty for carrying past a 30.06 sign to a Class C misdemeanor. If you're given notice and asked to leave and then don't leave, it's a Class A, with arrest/jail/loss of CHL, etc.

If you're completely concealed, can an LEO walk up to you and ask if you're CCW, because he sees that slight bulge under your shirt? Do you have to respond? I'm assume you do, otherwise you'll start some big mess.

I'm visualizing a situation where a store employee sees your bulge, asks if you're CCW, and you tell him it's none of his business, so he calls the police: "I think there's a guy carrying a gun in the store...." and the cop shows up and approaches you with the question.

If I were an employee (or a business owner), and it was my job to ask someone if they were carrying; if they responded "it's none of your business", they would be told to leave.

I'm a big believer in the second amendment. I'm also a big believer in personal property rights. It is their business.

What would you do if they said NO? They still might (unknown to you be carrying). I guess the right process for an employee is just ask everyone suspected to be carrying to leave. Then again if you ask an offduty LEO to leave, and he asks why, and you say carrying, he may just tell you to pound sand. So much for Texas's grand respect for property rights.

I'm confused by your response. If the person said "no" when asked the leave, the response is pretty simple. Call the police. A business owner (and their representatives) can ask anyone to leave for any reason, with the exception being the "protected classes".

Sorry I meant NO when you asked if they were concealed carrying. The key word here is CONCEALED. Why are you asking? If you think they are, don't ask, just tell the person you suspect NO GUNS in here, begone with you.

If you tell an offduty cop "NO GUNS, begone with you." And he says "Pound sand!", then tell him "no COPS, begone with you, then call his brethren and get them to "trespass" him so he won't come back.

My original point was that if you ask someone if they are CCing and they say no (even though they are) and you don't tell them NO CC, then they're not committing a crime (unless you're already properly posted).

ScottDLS wrote:

ScooterSissy wrote:

ScottDLS wrote:

ScooterSissy wrote:

Ruark wrote:An amendment that came up to HB 910 reduces the penalty for carrying past a 30.06 sign to a Class C misdemeanor. If you're given notice and asked to leave and then don't leave, it's a Class A, with arrest/jail/loss of CHL, etc.

If you're completely concealed, can an LEO walk up to you and ask if you're CCW, because he sees that slight bulge under your shirt? Do you have to respond? I'm assume you do, otherwise you'll start some big mess.

I'm visualizing a situation where a store employee sees your bulge, asks if you're CCW, and you tell him it's none of his business, so he calls the police: "I think there's a guy carrying a gun in the store...." and the cop shows up and approaches you with the question.

If I were an employee (or a business owner), and it was my job to ask someone if they were carrying; if they responded "it's none of your business", they would be told to leave.

I'm a big believer in the second amendment. I'm also a big believer in personal property rights. It is their business.

What would you do if they said NO? They still might (unknown to you be carrying). I guess the right process for an employee is just ask everyone suspected to be carrying to leave. Then again if you ask an offduty LEO to leave, and he asks why, and you say carrying, he may just tell you to pound sand. So much for Texas's grand respect for property rights.

I'm confused by your response. If the person said "no" when asked the leave, the response is pretty simple. Call the police. A business owner (and their representatives) can ask anyone to leave for any reason, with the exception being the "protected classes".

Sorry I meant NO when you asked if they were concealed carrying. The key word here is CONCEALED. Why are you asking? If you think they are, don't ask, just tell the person you suspect NO GUNS in here, begone with you.

If you tell an offduty cop "NO GUNS, begone with you." And he says "Pound sand!", then tell him "no COPS, begone with you, then call his brethren and get them to "trespass" him so he won't come back.

My original point was that if you ask someone if they are CCing and they say no (even though they are) and you don't tell them NO CC, then they're not committing a crime (unless you're already properly posted).

Ahhhh, that's more clear.

Depends on why I asked (this is all hypothetical mind you, if I were an employee I wouldn't ask, I wouldn't really care).

If I saw a bulge, I'd shrug it off and figure maybe I made a mistake. If I had seen the gun, I'd tell him to leave.

You don't have to have a bulge showing to be asked for ID. I was approached by DPS outside a convenience store and he asked to see my DL. I handed him my DL and CHL. He noticed I had an expired inspection sticker, so it was sort of an off the road traffic stop.

Let's trim this back a bit. You have a bulge. A cop walks up, points at it and asks if you're CCW. I assume it would be prudent to say "yes" otherwise you're giving false information to a police officer. In addition to that, or before that, or in place of that, is there ANYTHING else you could say? For example:

"Before I answer that, sir, do you have probable cause to suspect that I'm involved in criminal activity?"

"Am I being detained?"

I'm trying to come up with something "safe," that avoids sheepishly bowing to his authority, but not aggravating him into something messy.

Ruark wrote:Let's trim this back a bit. You have a bulge. A cop walks up, points at it and asks if you're CCW. I assume it would be prudent to say "yes" otherwise you're giving false information to a police officer. In addition to that, or before that, or in place of that, is there ANYTHING else you could say? For example:

"Before I answer that, sir, do you have probable cause to suspect that I'm involved in criminal activity?"

"Am I being detained?"

I'm trying to come up with something "safe," that avoids sheepishly bowing to his authority, but not aggravating him into something messy.

I don't understand what legal issue is involved here that makes a bulge an issue. This is different than an expired tag.