TexasCHLforum.com

Posted: **Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:06 am**

txinvestigator wrote: He was not screwed over by the police. Roomates qualify under DV, and the police are REQUIRED to take action.

It's too late for me to dive into the PC or FC, so I'll let you back the "roomates qualify under DV" with a cite from Texas code.

Meanwhile, I'll point out that the Lautenberg Amendment defines "domestic" like this:

"has, as an element, the use or attempted use of physical force, or the threatened use of a deadly weapon, committed by a current or former spouse, parent, or guardian of the victim, by a person with whom the victim shares a child in common, by a person who is cohabiting with or has cohabited with the victim as a spouse, parent, or guardian, or by a person similarly situated to a spouse, parent, or guardian of the victim."

Simple roomates would not qualify for DV under federal law. And in Texas, even same-sex couples wouldn't qualify, since they can't be "person(s) similarly situated to a spouse".

Posted: **Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:29 am**

Awesome guys I just found this: There is not a Texas penal code statute entitled "Assault - Family Violence." Despite what offense may have been written on the magistrate's warning or bail bond, the actual offense is for "Assault". In Texas, an assault offense can range from a Class C misdemeanor (similar to traffic citation) to a felony. The charge is a Class C misdemeanor if the physical contact is merely regarded as " offensive " or "provocative". In those situations, the suspect usually receives a citation and promises to appear later in a Municipal Court where the maximum punishment is by fine up to $500.00.

My charge was "Assault - family violence" meaning it is for Assault.
Which my understanding class C misdemeanor assault does not effect eligibility.

KBCraig... You sir are awesome. That helped alot.

Posted: **Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:25 am**

More good news for you. Go to this link on the BATFE website.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/domestic/qa.htm

Note item# 3. It gives a definition of what makes something a crime of domestic violence.

"(3) was committed by a current or former spouse, parent, or guardian of the victim, by a person with whom the victim shares a child in common, by a person who is cohabiting with or has cohabited with the victim as a spouse, parent, or guardian, or by a person similarly situated to a spouse, parent, or guardian of the victim. "

Note that a "roommate" doesn't fit into the catagories listed above, unless it is a roommate who is, "....a spouse, parent, or guardian, or by a person similarly situated to a spouse, parent, or guardian..."

So it appears to me that whatever you were convicted of in TX, it does not qualify as a DV misdemeanor as far as BATFE is concerned.

That means that as far as the feds are concerned, you can truthfully fill out the 4473 and legitimately pass the NICS check.

Posted: **Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:27 am**

robotreagan wrote:Awesome guys I just found this: There is not a Texas penal code statute entitled "Assault - Family Violence." Despite what offense may have been written on the magistrate's warning or bail bond, the actual offense is for "Assault".

This is very cool! Where did you find this citation?

Posted: **Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:38 am**

It looks like it is going to work out for you. I think you did the right thing by attempting to prevent another drunk driver from being on the road. Sometimes no good deed can go unpunished. Best of luck to you!

Posted: **Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:16 am**

YES I DID. It was a very steep fine and at the time I simply did not have the money. I went the dumb rout and it went to warrent. I went to jail the day before I was goin to pay it...yeah Murphy had some fun with me... I had the full amount of the fine in my wallet and paid it when I got jail. However I still was arrested so I had to put it down.

If you were not arrested , as you say, I would ask your CHL instructor, lawyer, PD, and anyone else if you must write it down and/or if it was a "criminal offence".

PAGE 3 #17
INDICATE ANY CRIMINAL HISTORY INFO ON YOURSELF, INCLUDING JUVENILE CRIMINAL HISTORY DATA. INCLUDE ANY OFFENCES FOR WHICH YOU WERE ARRESTED, OR CHARGED UNDER AN INFORMATION OR INDICTMENT.

Is a Cass C misdimenor citation is a "criminal offence"?
If so then a traffic ticket is a criminal offence too and that would have to written down too.

You must be patient and get this right.
If you dont put it down and it should have been, they will find it and may think you were wanting ti hide it from them.
If you put it down and they dont need it, IMO, no harm

Posted: **Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:34 am**

Target1911 wrote:YES I DID. It was a very steep fine and at the time I simply did not have the money. I went the dumb rout and it went to warrent. I went to jail the day before I was goin to pay it...yeah Murphy had some fun with me... I had the full amount of the fine in my wallet and paid it when I got jail. However I still was arrested so I had to put it down.

If you were not arrested , as you say, I would ask your CHL instructor, lawyer, PD, and anyone else if you must write it down and/or if it was a "criminal offence".

PAGE 3 #17
INDICATE ANY CRIMINAL HISTORY INFO ON YOURSELF, INCLUDING JUVENILE CRIMINAL HISTORY DATA. INCLUDE ANY OFFENCES FOR WHICH YOU WERE ARRESTED, OR CHARGED UNDER AN INFORMATION OR INDICTMENT.

Is a Cass C misdimenor citation is a "criminal offence"?
If so then a traffic ticket is a criminal offence too and that would have to written down too.

You must be patient and get this right.
If you dont put it down and it should have been, they will find it and may think you were wanting ti hide it from them.
If you put it down and they dont need it, IMO, no harm

I'd say once the his lawyer has the full information on the incident, call the CHL office and ask them. It seems apparent that this isn't a disqualifying offense, so calling them up and explaining the situation and background should get a solid answer on whether it needs to be documented on the application. Document the name of the person who gives the answer, and that should cover the situation should any questions arise later.

Posted: **Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:31 am**

I just got off the phone with them this morning.
They said if it is not a "traffic" offense then I should probably put it on the application. What I am worried about is that because the citation says "family violence" and most people seem to think that is automatic domestic abuse. As defined by the Texas penal code (I read it this morning but I am not at my house so I don't have the link. I will post it later though.) Domestic Abuse stipulates that one party must be injured or have a realistic fear of violent assault.

If it was actually a domestic violence case the police officer would of had to arrest me or require me to leave the premises which neither occurred.

So I am going to send it on in with the ticket information on the application. The DPS CHL legal dept. said that it would be investigated locally and then the application process would continue.

And if for any reason it is denied I have a pretty good leg to stand on at the hearing that would surely occur. Considering Class C misdemeanor assault doesn't bar one from getting a CHL.

Posted: **Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:40 am**

robotreagan wrote:I just got off the phone with them this morning.
They said if it is not a "traffic" offense then I should probably put it on the application. What I am worried about is that because the citation says "family violence" and most people seem to think that is automatic domestic abuse. As defined by the Texas penal code (I read it this morning but I am not at my house so I don't have the link. I will post it later though.) Domestic Abuse stipulates that one party must be injured or have a realistic fear of violent assault.

If it was actually a domestic violence case the police officer would of had to arrest me or require me to leave the premises which neither occurred.

So I am going to send it on in with the ticket information on the application. The DPS CHL legal dept. said that it would be investigated locally and then the application process would continue.

And if for any reason it is denied I have a pretty good leg to stand on at the hearing that would surely occur. Considering Class C misdemeanor assault doesn't bar one from getting a CHL.

I would hold off a bit. A few days one way or the other won't kill you.

Find out the exact statute number under which you were convicted. Get that info to your lawyer. HAVE HIM TELL YOU WHAT TO PUT ON THE APPLICATION.

It doesn't matter what verbiage is on the ticket. If the actual statute is just "Assault", then that's what you put down on the application. (Best if you put down the statute number itself.

But ONLY after talking to your lawyer.

It's a lot easier to do it right the first time than it is to clean up a mess.

Posted: **Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:41 am**

My advice: get a new lawyer, pay the couple hundred bucks and get a good answer from an expert. That is what I would do. I wouldn't trust the lawyer you have now based on what you said.

Posted: **Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:46 am**

Check out this link.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administra ... rt2005.pdf

This is a full listing of criminal convictions for CHL's for 2005.

Note the following:

ASSAULT CAUSES BODILY INJ DATE/FAMILY/HOUSE 13 0 0.0000%
ASSAULT CAUSES BODILY INJURY FAMILY VIOLENCE 9,718 15 0.1544%

For the first item, a total of 13 Texans were convicted in 2005, none of them being CHL's.

For the 2nd item, a total of 9718 Texans were convicted in 2005, 15 of which were CHL's.

Not sure if these were the statutes under which you were charged.

Just FYI.

Posted: **Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:54 am**

I thought it took a Class B misdemeanor before any issues arise with firearm purchases or obtaining a CHL.

Posted: **Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:20 pm**

I can't go to most of the links right now... or read that pdf. I will when I get home for sure thanks for them!

Any class A or B misdemeanor OR ANY violation under Texas penal code 42.01 (disorderly conduct) OR any domestic violence charge.

Posted: **Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:44 pm**

robotreagan wrote:Well I can purchase guns I have done so twice in the last few months.
A brand new .45 XD compact was one of them. This is of course after the ticket.

So this is confusing to me alot. I do have a lawyer who is very competent and told me that he could get it off my record.

Another thing I don't understand is that it doesn't show up in any federal background checks or DPS background checks... The only place it is, is at the PD who issued the citation.

You have just admitted to violating federal law. It is illegal for you to purchase firearms.

Now, the reason why it doesn't show up in background checks is actually pretty simple. In Texas, traffic offenses are class C misdemeanors, as are many other minor crimes (assault by contact for example). Municipal Courts and JP's handle only these cases. Many JP's and Municipal Courts do not bother reporting these things to anyone, including on your drvier's license.

Computerized Criminal History (CCH) records are actually maintained by DPS in Texas. They feed the information into federal systems for background checks. So far, DPS does not ask for, and in general will not record, class C misdemeanors on criminal histories. I wish they would because several of them have upgrades for repeat offenses (such as three thefts is automatically a felony) and if they occur in a different court than mine, I cannot find out about them to upgrade the offense. This really helps professional shoplifters stay at the misdemeanor level.

Posted: **Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:51 pm**

srothstein wrote: You have just admitted to violating federal law. It is illegal for you to purchase firearms.

Did you look at the federal definition of a DV offense? To be DV, the other person has to be a family member or spouse, parent, guardian, etc. The definition does not appear to include a mere "roommate".

Now there could be case law with which I am unfamiliar. But just reading the statute (specifically, the Lautenberg Amendment) it looks like robotreagan's offense doesn't qualify.

So I still say that robotreagan needs to have a good lawyer review everything, including the exact numbered statute that he admitted to violating, and advise him as to how to proceed. And to do this before submitting his CHL application.

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