TexasCHLforum.com

PC §9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE’S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person in lawful
possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against
another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is
immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other’s trespass on the land or
unlawful interference with the property.
(b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by
another is justified in using force against the other when and to the degree the
actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land
or recover the property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit
after the dispossession and:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when he
dispossessed the actor; or
(2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud
against the actor.
§9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in
using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
TEXAS CONCEALED HANDGUN LAWS
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(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41;
and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is
immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other’s imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery,
aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the
nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary,
robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the night¬time from escaping
with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other
means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or
property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or
serious bodily injury.
Criminal mischief during the nighttime?

One Shot wrote: Criminal mischief during the nighttime?

It's possible that it might cover it. Texas Penal Code 28.03 covers the definitions of Criminal Mischief http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/PE/7/28/28.03" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Isn't there another set of laws dealing with livestock that apply in addition to simple property?

MechAg94 wrote:Isn't there another set of laws dealing with livestock that apply in addition to simple property?

Nope. Just on theft of livestock in Penal Code 31. No other reference on use of force.

Keith B wrote:

One Shot wrote: Criminal mischief during the nighttime?

It's possible that it might cover it. Texas Penal Code 28.03 covers the definitions of Criminal Mischief http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/PE/7/28/28.03" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Horses (and other livestock) are explicitly listed as a state jail felony.

A citizen is allowed to detain and or arrest in the commission of a felony. However, the fine point to be aware of is the actions of the other party can take a citizen's arrest and turn it into self defense in the blink of an eye should they use deadly force.

Also, if I was the OP, I'd rather have a rifle or shotgun (w slugs) instead of a pistol if I was confronting a trespasser at night. Especially a trespasser known to be armed.

I would like a little clarification. If a person trespasses in my house with a weapon, It would be a defense from prosecution to shoot the trespasser. However, if an armed trespasser is on my land and shoots my horse, I can't shoot the armed trespasser?

2farnorth wrote:

Postby KHickam » Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:53 am

Around 9:30 pm our kennel dogs started raising heck (we can hear them from the house) but we thought it was the guy that rents the small house next to our kennel coming home - my wife said she heard gunshots (small caliber)

Not clearly knowing your situation there, the above had me wondering why you didn't have LE response that night. If I hear nearby gunshots after dark I would want it investigated.

We live in the country in a heavy wooded area - there are coyotes, foxes bobcats and other animals including hogs - hearing gunshots at night is not anything new - and as I said the dogs barking and stuff could have meant the young man that rents the small house on the property had come home.

It is what it is I guess - but it is disturbing someonce can come on property I lease and drive 300 ft off the road behind my barn and shoot my registered Tennessee Walking Horse Filly (14 months old) and had I been in a position to stop them - I can't - but someone burglarizing my house and I pull up I can use force - seems like it is a pretty illogical law to me - but like I said I did not catch them - we made a police report and now when I am driving to the farm - I put my rifle in the truck (for critters and such on the 88 acre farm I lease to keep my horses and dogs)

Incidents where people kill friendly domesticated animals break my heart.

They are often "thrill kills" or killing "to see what it feels like." They're one short step away from killing humans, and its not unusual for the folks who engage in this behavior to move on to the next step.

The person who did this is dangerous, and it is also highly likely that he has bragged about it to his buddies. He also very likely lives or often stays very near you.

Ask around (and have your friends, neighbors, church folks) ask around in circles whose members are between about 14 and 23. Pay special attention to drug abusers. Word gets around. You may well be able to find out who did it and have the sheriff intervene before he does something else.

They make sensors that will beep/buzz etc in your house when someone comes down your road, might be a good investment.
Sorry about your horse. Hope you/the police catch them.

I suggest talking about the incident with your county Sheriff or county Commissioners. When ranchers in the western parts of the state post their land, they are VERY serious about those who trespass and shoot at their livestock.

Of course horse stealing/killing used to be a capital offense.

OneGun wrote:I would like a little clarification. If a person trespasses in my house with a weapon, It would be a defense from prosecution to shoot the trespasser. However, if an armed trespasser is on my land and shoots my horse, I can't shoot the armed trespasser?

Yes, legally there is quite a difference between trespass in the house and trespass on the land outside it. If we were dealing with just the trespass, that would be a simple answer.

But neither of those situations is just a trespass case. In the case of inside the house, as a general rule you get to presume the burglary is occurring. In the case of the trespasser shooting the horse, you have multiple crimes going on. You have the trespass while armed, which does not justify the shooting, then you have the cruelty to livestock animal (PC 42.09) which would be a state jail felony. I would guess that shooting the horse would come under the heading of torture (causing unnecessary pain) but I have to admit that killing the animal is not specifically defined as cruelty. I believe most prosecutors have been doing this in this manner. Then we also have the criminal mischief. A horse is property and it is illegal to damage another person's property. This would go by the value of the animal (the defined part as a felony is for a fence containing the animal but not the animal itself). And, as we all know, criminal mischief at night does justify the use of deadly force.

So, you might be allowed to shoot a trespasser in your house, while not allowed to shoot the armed trespasser in your yard, but you are justified in shooting the armed trespasser who is shooting your horse at 9:30 p.m., as the OP had stated.

OneGun wrote:I would like a little clarification. If a person trespasses in my house with a weapon, It would be a defense from prosecution to shoot the trespasser. However, if an armed trespasser is on my land and shoots my horse, I can't shoot the armed trespasser?

My take: If your horse is already dead and he's not threatening otherwise, then no, you can't shoot him. Shooting your horse or dog is the same as shooting your lawn mower as far as Texas is concerned, all of the above are property. The person can be held liable for the damage to property.

If you were to use force to prevent what you believed to be immanent damage to your property which could not be avoided by any other means, then you *might* be justified. You might be more justified if it was dark and they were "in progress".

For the average cost of legal defense involved in a shooting (supposedly around $50k), I can get a lot of insurance. I can also replace a lot of lawn mowers. And as upset as I might be about someone shooting my dog - regardless of how I might feel about it - I know better than to make a deadly response.

Keith B wrote:

JALLEN wrote:Isn't the general rule, and underlying philosophy, that one cannot shoot another because they are angry, or upset with them, but only if they are threatening them, or theirs, or someone else?

If someone comes on your property and comports himself in a belligerent or threatening manner, you need not wait until he fires the first shot.

OTOH, you can't shoot him because he shot your animal(s).

You would have to follow the laws for protecting property. And you cannot use deadly force to stop the trespassing only. In this case, the law is not on the side of the horse owner, as it is not written only deals with the fact that livestock is only considered property. Same with domesticated animals. While there may be heavy emotional attachment by the owner, if someone shoots your dog it would be a disorderly conduct charge.

I am missing why this is not criminal mischief commited at night.

Sec. 28.03. CRIMINAL MISCHIEF.

(a) A person commits an offense if, without the effective consent of the owner:

(1) he intentionally or knowingly damages or destroys the tangible property of the owner

(b) Except as provided by Subsections (f) and (h), an offense under this section is:

(4) a state jail felony if the amount of pecuniary loss is:

(A) $1,500 or more but less than $20,000;

If you blocked the way out after the animal had been shot, criminal mischief would have occured and no longer be imminent, thus you could use force, but not deadly force. Showing your firearm without firing it would be force. What happened after that would determine your possible escalation to deadly force.

This is my opinion, but I am not a lawyer.

Things are done a bit differently out where ranches are frequented by people who get a kick out of shooting a ranchers' cattle. That is why I suggested the county authorities. Where I am now, it's probably the letter of the law. When I lived in the Trans-Pecos area, there was a more "code of the West" attitude. Lots of discretion when there are no cell phones or witnesses around. I'll let you be the judge of right or wrong, but a lot of those counties became known as places not to trespass posted land.

Did I miss something? Everyone keeps talking about how shooting the guy because he shot the OPs horse would not be justified. But in reading the original post again, the OP didn't say anything about shooting the guy because he killed his horse. He simply asked if he would be justified in blocking the drive until police arrived. He even mentioned keeping his gun handy but still concealed in case the guy "rammed" his truck.
How did we get from blocking the drive to shooting the guy just because he shot your horse isn't justified?