TexasCHLforum.com

Animal wrote:http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/local-n ... t_15477637

Apparently these guys were hunting on private property adjacent to Goodfellow AFB and were detained by the MP's. All I can say is WOW!

From Greg Simons FB

I'm disappointed in our local Goodfellow Airforce Base Security for what they did today. On a farm field that we lease that's adjacent to the Base, surrounded b...y a security fence, they swarmed our group of 6 hunters, made them lay on their belly, spread eagle, for almost 30 minutes at gunpoint, two of them on asphalt in almost 100 degree temps and would not let them move, with our hunters pleading with them. One was laying in a red ant bed and they would not let him move. Our local police officers arrived and sorted matters out, assuring the Airforce security that all was okay. Airforce security visited with these same hunters earlier today telling them that all was good, asking who they (security) should contact to get permission to hunt the property. What's even more amazing is that our local television news was there and minutes earlier had finished filming an interview on the importance of hunting to our local economy. Appears they may have also filmed this very unfortunate event. Seems to me that Goodfellow should provide a formal apology to some folks. I'm thankful to our local police department for intervening and providing some relief to this matter.

Animal, first let me welcome you to the forum. I have a few questions for you if you don't mind.....

My first question is this:

• Were you personally involved in this event? I ask, because the story you linked to contains no information about a hunter being made to lie on a fire ant bed, or the others being made to lie on burning hot asphalt for 30 minutes without relief. Ergo, the additional information is either:
  
  1. first hand (you were involved), or
  2. second hand (someone you know personally was involved).
  Third hand (everyone's talking about it) doesn't count. So what is your relationship to the hunters who were held?

My second question is this:

• Do you have a CHL, if so, for how long, and can you tell us a little bit about yourself..... such as, what kind of pistol do you carry, what kind of holster do you like, etc., etc...... in other words, things pertaining to CHL? I ask because although we do discuss other topics here, CHL is the reason for the forum's existence, and it is the reason most people join. Most topics center around various issues that affect people with CHLs.....and your first and second posts involve something unrelated to CHL. In other words, did you join because you're a CHL, or did you join simply in order to post a complaint against Goodfellow base security, backed up by incomplete information?

Thank you in advance for taking the time to answer.

Annoying Man - I have actually been reading this site since I got my CHL around 5 years ago and started in the "Waiting Room". I was registered but rarely posted, so I could not find/remember my log in info. That is why I re-registered to post this information.

I carry a 1911 in condition 1 at 3 o'clock in a Whitehat IWB holster. I hope that is OK with you......

As far as the information on the hunters laying down, that came from Greg Simons Facebook page. He is the landowner and a friend of a friend.

In other words, did you join because you're a CHL, or did you join simply in order to post a complaint against Goodfellow base security, backed up by incomplete information?

I posted because I was interested in getting the perspectives of people on this board and letting others know about a potentially bad situation. I can point you to many other posts that are further off topic than this one, so I am not sure why there is an issue. I notice that you are not listed as one of the moderators and neither one of them have expressed a problem with the post.

As far as "incomplete information" is there any other kind? I am posting on a message board, not presenting in a court of law.

Here's a link to his facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/wildlife.system


Note the comments, especially Mark Borsi's. He seems to have some background that gives him some insight.

Here's a news crew picture. Looks like it substantiate where some of them were laying.



Brief news clip. Doesn't do the story justice in my opinion. http://www.myfoxzone.com/story/29945387 ... g-surprise

Animal wrote:Annoying Man - I have actually been reading this site since I got my CHL around 5 years ago and started in the "Waiting Room". I was registered but rarely posted, so I could not find/remember my log in info. That is why I re-registered to post this information.

I carry a 1911 in condition 1 at 3 o'clock in a Whitehat IWB holster. I hope that is OK with you......

As far as the information on the hunters laying down, that came from Greg Simons Facebook page. He is the landowner and a friend of a friend.

In other words, did you join because you're a CHL, or did you join simply in order to post a complaint against Goodfellow base security, backed up by incomplete information?

I posted because I was interested in getting the perspectives of people on this board and letting others know about a potentially bad situation. I can point you to many other posts that are further off topic than this one, so I am not sure why there is an issue. I notice that you are not listed as one of the moderators and neither one of them have expressed a problem with the post.

As far as "incomplete information" is there any other kind? I am posting on a message board, not presenting in a court of law.

With all due respect, there is no need to call me names. I'm not calling you names. "Annoying Man" is not my username, and I'd appreciate it if you'd either use my correct username, OR, pending that, just use "TAM" like a lot of other people do.

Animal, please don't get your feathers ruffled on my account. I was not questioning your facts, but was interested in more details and the news story didn't have them, and I have learned over the years to question a source until there is a more complete picture, that is all. I have no idea who Greg Simmons is, what he does, or anything about his Facebook page.

As far as your gun choice, I love 1911s, but you certainly do not need my approval for what you carry, and I did not come close to suggesting that such approval was necessary. Since neither I (nor likely anybody else) knew that you were a long time member - for exactly the reasons you've outlined (i.e. "I was registered but rarely posted, so I could not find/remember my log in info. That is why I re-registered to post this information.") - I can be forgiven for assuming that you were brand new to the board. And since that was a natural assumption, I was merely curious since most new members post here for other reasons, having to do directly with CHL. That's all I meant, and nothing more.

BTW, I spent the last 2 days dove hunting too - so it's not like we don't have anything in common - and the inappropriate abuse of hunters by law enforcement outside of their jurisdictions absolutely concerns me. But unhappy encounters with LEOs are often (but not always) a two-sided story, and that is why I mentioned "incomplete" facts. I'm not saying your facts are wrong. I am that there are perhaps additional unknown facts that help to explain the known facts. If there are no such additional facts which would expand on our initial understanding, then this is a truly disturbing story. But I am left wondering if there are additional facts. That's all I meant. I don't need to be a moderator to have that privilege. Nobody does. Please consider that possibility.

Peace out.

C-dub wrote:They should have called the police or sheriff since they were not on the base's property and on private land if there was a real problem. AFAIK, an MP has no authority over a civilian on private property and they should be charged with whatever I would be charged with if I'd done the same thing to someone else on their own property.

I agree. I didn't think MP had any authority once off base unless they are dealing with military personnel or are in "hot pursuit" from someone that just left a military base. Seems like they could be charged with unlawful detainment and I believe there is a law about interfering with a hunter as well. On the other hand, from my experience in the military it wasn't the sharpest crew that ended up being MPs (don't flame if you are an ex-MP).

I wonder if the land owner can press charges against the MPs for trespassing?

I was stationed at GAFB from 96-99 (and still know several people still working there) and there are no active flight lines.

Most likely some new duty sergeant/officer was notified someone saw people with guns near the fence line, and had no personal knowledge of dove hunting or Texas law or anything and overreacted.

Also, as far as I am aware, there has never been an incident of someone attacking the base - so I'm not sure why leaving the base grounds and detaining citizens who are committing no crime is allowed in the first place as a first response.

And yes, the SPs get bored and will pull some stunts from time to time. I got to lay on the ground once when I was working building lockup and set off the alarm accidentally while securing one of the SCIFs. AFTER showing proper ID - heck, I knew the guy (but not well).

One here earlier hit the nail on the head. Unless the military cops were in fresh pursuit, they had absolutely no authority to do what they did off of base property.

TomfromTx wrote:One here earlier hit the nail on the head. Unless the military cops were in fresh pursuit, they had absolutely no authority to do what they did off of base property.

Does anyone think that they will claim they were in fresh pursuit of these guys since they were actively hunting at the time of their apprehension? Does anyone think they will be charged with anything for this?

bigity wrote:I was stationed at GAFB from 96-99 (and still know several people still working there) and there are no active flight lines.

Most likely some new duty sergeant/officer was notified someone saw people with guns near the fence line, and had no personal knowledge of dove hunting or Texas law or anything and overreacted.

Also, as far as I am aware, there has never been an incident of someone attacking the base - so I'm not sure why leaving the base grounds and detaining citizens who are committing no crime is allowed in the first place as a first response.

And yes, the SPs get bored and will pull some stunts from time to time. I got to lay on the ground once when I was working building lockup and set off the alarm accidentally while securing one of the SCIFs. AFTER showing proper ID - heck, I knew the guy (but not well).

I was there briefly in that time period, we may have crossed paths. I was on the Army side of the post - we used to love stealing your golf carts after we'd had a few Gatorades.

C-dub wrote:They should have called the police or sheriff since they were not on the base's property and on private land if there was a real problem. AFAIK, an MP has no authority over a civilian on private property and they should be charged with whatever I would be charged with if I'd done the same thing to someone else on their own property.

This. I would like to know the actual law on what authority, if any, an MP has over a civilian on private property (or public property, for that matter).

Wouldn't this possibly be a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878?

I can imagine that the base commander was mortified about the incident (they typically hate anything that makes the Air Force look bad and generates negative attention from the higher ups). So, the "Wing King" (or Queen) probably called the Security Forces Squadron commander into the office, and using some specific and forceful language, asked what those cops were thinking, what sort of training did they receive, and how quickly are they going to receive additional training, and maybe the weekend is a good time to do that. I doubt anything major will happen to them for their over-zealousness because they were just protecting the base. That said, the base likes to keep good relations with the locals, so I guarantee something will happen to mollify those affected. So, I'd imagine those young cops were made to see the error of their ways, a massive Powerpoint program has already been created addressing this situation, and two new layers of training will accompany it, and perhaps even some sort of an apology will be in the works. That's the "Air Force way".

Just sayin.. someone lying in a red ant bed for 30 minutes would have needed an emergency room. Didn't sound like anyone was transported to the hospital, so maybe there's a little bit of truth stretching going on there....

But anyways, civilian and military interactions always crack me up, when the civilian side takes umbrage to something the GI's do. Gotta tell you, with the GWOT right now (that's Global War on Terror for those that have been asleep for a few decades) and the Force Protection bar being raised above Peacetime Normal, any suspicious activity outside of a military installation is likely to get a response similar to what seems to have happened here. Military commanders are taking protection of their troops and property seriously, now, after Knoxville and other incidents that have gone on lately.

Likely the only thing said to those SPs by their higher-ups was "good job".

n5wd wrote:Just sayin.. someone lying in a red ant bed for 30 minutes would have needed an emergency room. Didn't sound like anyone was transported to the hospital, so maybe there's a little bit of truth stretching going on there....

But anyways, civilian and military interactions always crack me up, when the civilian side takes umbrage to something the GI's do. Gotta tell you, with the GWOT right now (that's Global War on Terror for those that have been asleep for a few decades) and the Force Protection bar being raised above Peacetime Normal, any suspicious activity outside of a military installation is likely to get a response similar to what seems to have happened here. Military commanders are taking protection of their troops and property seriously, now, after Knoxville and other incidents that have gone on lately.

Likely the only thing said to those SPs by their higher-ups was "good job".

That may be, but I can't believe that this was the first time anyone has been dove hunting on this property.