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Re: "Ideal" campus carry plan
Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:45 pm
by parabelum
JALLEN wrote:C-dub wrote:.... but what's the risk of being in a lab where some maniac comes in with a gun to kill someone else and you could be armed, but have disarmed because the school is afraid your gun will spontaneously go off and break a beaker filled with acid?
What are the odds of you sitting in a Luby's Cafeteria with your parents, your pistol in the glove box of your car, when a lunatic drives his truck through the wall and begins executing everyone he can while you watch, helplessly?
I watched that lady's testimony, and I'd say that ought to be a prerequisite viewing for all anti-2A idiots.
Re: "Ideal" campus carry plan
Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:49 pm
by Solaris
Jazz99 wrote:In a perfect world, everyone could carry freely in all locations without infringement.
Since we aren't quite there, what would the "next best" option look like regarding campus carry? (Honest question).
Uniformity across all campuses.
What we have now is a disaster, which each campus having different rules. Nearly impossible for anyone not living on the campus to know what is legal and what is not.
Re: "Ideal" campus carry plan
Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:59 pm
by Papa_Tiger
Solaris wrote:Jazz99 wrote:In a perfect world, everyone could carry freely in all locations without infringement.
Since we aren't quite there, what would the "next best" option look like regarding campus carry? (Honest question).
Uniformity across all campuses.
What we have now is a disaster, which each campus having different rules. Nearly impossible for anyone not living on the campus to know what is legal and what is not.
Keep in mind, all the restricted areas will need to be posted with a 30.06 sign and the rules must be published on the University Website, so there will be some help for LTC holders who visit a college campus.
Re: "Ideal" campus carry plan
Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:20 pm
by Solaris
Papa_Tiger wrote:Solaris wrote:Jazz99 wrote:In a perfect world, everyone could carry freely in all locations without infringement.
Since we aren't quite there, what would the "next best" option look like regarding campus carry? (Honest question).
Uniformity across all campuses.
What we have now is a disaster, which each campus having different rules. Nearly impossible for anyone not living on the campus to know what is legal and what is not.
Keep in mind, all the restricted areas will need to be posted with a 30.06 sign and the rules must be published on the University Website, so there will be some help for LTC holders who visit a college campus.
Having worked on a college campus, do not be surprised when those 30.06 signs start multiplying like rabbits.
Re: "Ideal" campus carry plan
Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:50 pm
by C-dub
JALLEN wrote:C-dub wrote:.... but what's the risk of being in a lab where some maniac comes in with a gun to kill someone else and you could be armed, but have disarmed because the school is afraid your gun will spontaneously go off and break a beaker filled with acid?
What are the odds of you sitting in a Luby's Cafeteria with your parents, your pistol in the glove box of your car, when a lunatic drives his truck through the wall and begins executing everyone he can while you watch, helplessly?
Exactly my sarcastic point.
Re: "Ideal" campus carry plan
Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:58 pm
by JALLEN
Solaris wrote:Jazz99 wrote:In a perfect world, everyone could carry freely in all locations without infringement.
Since we aren't quite there, what would the "next best" option look like regarding campus carry? (Honest question).
Uniformity across all campuses.
What we have now is a disaster, which each campus having different rules. Nearly impossible for anyone not living on the campus to know what is legal and what is not.
That may be why the anti's aren't that unhappy. When it seems to be a disaster, they can say "I told you this was a dumb idea. It's time to end this harebrained experiment before somebody gets hurt."
Re: "Ideal" campus carry plan
Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:12 pm
by C-dub
JALLEN wrote:Solaris wrote:Jazz99 wrote:In a perfect world, everyone could carry freely in all locations without infringement.
Since we aren't quite there, what would the "next best" option look like regarding campus carry? (Honest question).
Uniformity across all campuses.
What we have now is a disaster, which each campus having different rules. Nearly impossible for anyone not living on the campus to know what is legal and what is not.
That may be why the anti's aren't that unhappy. When it seems to be a disaster, they can say "I told you this was a dumb idea. It's time to end this harebrained experiment before somebody gets hurt."
I know you know better, but how could they possibly think that no one has already gotten hurt? That's what makes my head hurt trying to understand that.
Re: "Ideal" campus carry plan
Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:21 pm
by JALLEN
C-dub wrote:JALLEN wrote:Solaris wrote:Jazz99 wrote:In a perfect world, everyone could carry freely in all locations without infringement.
Since we aren't quite there, what would the "next best" option look like regarding campus carry? (Honest question).
Uniformity across all campuses.
What we have now is a disaster, which each campus having different rules. Nearly impossible for anyone not living on the campus to know what is legal and what is not.
That may be why the anti's aren't that unhappy. When it seems to be a disaster, they can say "I told you this was a dumb idea. It's time to end this harebrained experiment before somebody gets hurt."
I know you know better, but how could they possibly think that no one has already gotten hurt? That's what makes my head hurt trying to understand that.
Who has been hurt by this? The regs haven't gone into effect yet, nor have the "rules" for each campus.
Re: "Ideal" campus carry plan
Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:54 pm
by AJSully421
Soccerdad1995 wrote:AJSully421 wrote:With MRI machines and magnets, it is not the danger of a discharge, it is the fact that a steel pistol will forcibly rip itself form any holster and fly across the room, or take the person carrying along with it. There are videos of MRIs doing crazy things to ferrous items.
Serious question. Are metal detectors required outside the entrances to locations with these machines? If the magnets are powerful enough to propel a 200 pound man carrying 40 ounces (or possibly a lot less) of metal, then they can surely cause loose keys and other small unsecured objects to fly across the room as well.
I've only had one MRI, but I don't remember any grave warnings along these lines.
Nope. Most are not aware of what a MRI can do. Here is a video. Notice that a simple open-end wrench can cause hundreds of pounds of pull. Imagine what a 1911 could do? Notice what something with as little steel as a stapler can do. Admittedly, you would have to walk within about 10 or so feet of the opening for anything to happen, but I see no problem with having that room and maybe the tech office where they monitor the machine be off limits... but not the entire building.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BBx8BwLhqg
Re: "Ideal" campus carry plan
Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:45 pm
by Jazz99
Thanks for the replies. They are truly helpful.
I understand restrictions for areas with MRI's etc where there is a danger from any metal object being present. My Dad was a welder and we couldn't answer doctor's questions good enough before he needed an MRI and they did several X-rays just to be sure. So, I understand what a dire situation it could be.
But like the rest of you,I don't understand the need to prohibit guns in ALL laboratories because it will unjustly exclude some students and faculty from carrying on certain days. Which is why I am surprised that this exclusion is common across the board for most campus carry plans - even the "better" ones.
And yes, the minor children present clauses don't fly either. Same thing with patient care facilities, but like mentioned above, since most hospitals are posted, I wasn't surprised to see it come up.
Of any, the disciplinary hearings are the only one that I could see in some situations. But, even then, if the situation was potentially volatile, campus police should be present too.
Re: "Ideal" campus carry plan
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:40 am
by TexasCajun
Count me in with the remove all restrictions crowd. There is no basis - anecdotal, factual, or otherwise to prohibit legally carried firearms from most or all areas. Even the referenced instances where something has gone wrong are so few, far between, and have to have the exact right circumstances be present to occur should be considered as outliers and be excluded from consideration.
As a whole, campus carry provisions are really a phased-in approach in answer to the seemingly large opposition. The legislature has given the governing boards the opportunity to demonstrate some level-hotheadedness and reasonableness. If the majority submit plans that are counter to the law or its intent or even try to stretch things as far as they can, the legislature is sure to revoke the authority they've granted. So we need to keep an eye on the situation & watch how it plays out.
Re: "Ideal" campus carry plan
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:43 am
by C-dub
JALLEN wrote:C-dub wrote:JALLEN wrote:Solaris wrote:Jazz99 wrote:In a perfect world, everyone could carry freely in all locations without infringement.
Since we aren't quite there, what would the "next best" option look like regarding campus carry? (Honest question).
Uniformity across all campuses.
What we have now is a disaster, which each campus having different rules. Nearly impossible for anyone not living on the campus to know what is legal and what is not.
That may be why the anti's aren't that unhappy. When it seems to be a disaster, they can say "I told you this was a dumb idea. It's time to end this harebrained experiment before somebody gets hurt."
I know you know better, but how could they possibly think that no one has already gotten hurt? That's what makes my head hurt trying to understand that.
Who has been hurt by this? The regs haven't gone into effect yet, nor have the "rules" for each campus.
My bad. That wasn't very clear. I was referring to people that have already been hurt, killed, raped, robbed because of their inability to carry inside classrooms, effectively disarming them and leaving them defenseless when coming and going from classes at all hours of the day and night so far. Not a licensee that will be allowed to carry in classrooms, but not certain places in the near future.
Re: "Ideal" campus carry plan
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:20 pm
by eyedoc
C-dub wrote:1. Prohibited in science laboratories.
I spent all of my years in college in laboratories, biology and chemistry. There's only a few things that are really dangerous and contrary to the movies, everything that gets shot doesn't all go boom. Off the top of my head the only things that would be bad if they got shot would be various acids because they would splash or drip all over. There may be others, but what's the risk of being in a lab where some maniac comes in with a gun to kill someone else and you could be armed, but have disarmed because the school is afraid your gun will spontaneously go off and break a beaker filled with acid?
Also, for science majors and likely many others, excluding laboratories would effectively ban someone from carrying their entire day at school.
2. Prohibited in areas where school children frequent or receive treatment.
I never understand this argument. I am frequently around young children and the movies and grocery store or department store. There are hospitals and doctors offices that do not post and everyone has been just fine. I've carried in my own doctor's office and my child's pediatricians office for years.
3. Prohibited in patient care facilities.
Same argument as #2.
4. Prohibited in locations where disciplinary hearings are conducted.
Maybe this one is reasonable, but how would it be applied and ensured? Will there be metal detectors or wands or pat downs before anyone enters a disciplinary hearing? How have the universities ensured there haven't been any firearms brought into one of these in the past?
IMHO, none of these are reasonable with the possible exception of #4.
Concerning # 4. As a clinical professor, I have to tell a student that I am failing them out of the program. Should I be disarmed when they have threatened to kill me over it? Nothing will stop them from carrying a weapon if they are determined to kill me. Don't I have a right to self defense? And yes, I have been threatened with death by former students.
Re: "Ideal" campus carry plan
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:51 pm
by Dadtodabone
Re: "Ideal" campus carry plan
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:40 pm
by C-dub
eyedoc wrote:C-dub wrote:1. Prohibited in science laboratories.
I spent all of my years in college in laboratories, biology and chemistry. There's only a few things that are really dangerous and contrary to the movies, everything that gets shot doesn't all go boom. Off the top of my head the only things that would be bad if they got shot would be various acids because they would splash or drip all over. There may be others, but what's the risk of being in a lab where some maniac comes in with a gun to kill someone else and you could be armed, but have disarmed because the school is afraid your gun will spontaneously go off and break a beaker filled with acid?
Also, for science majors and likely many others, excluding laboratories would effectively ban someone from carrying their entire day at school.
2. Prohibited in areas where school children frequent or receive treatment.
I never understand this argument. I am frequently around young children and the movies and grocery store or department store. There are hospitals and doctors offices that do not post and everyone has been just fine. I've carried in my own doctor's office and my child's pediatricians office for years.
3. Prohibited in patient care facilities.
Same argument as #2.
4. Prohibited in locations where disciplinary hearings are conducted.
Maybe this one is reasonable, but how would it be applied and ensured? Will there be metal detectors or wands or pat downs before anyone enters a disciplinary hearing? How have the universities ensured there haven't been any firearms brought into one of these in the past?
IMHO, none of these are reasonable with the possible exception of #4.
Concerning # 4. As a clinical professor, I have to tell a student that I am failing them out of the program. Should I be disarmed when they have threatened to kill me over it? Nothing will stop them from carrying a weapon if they are determined to kill me. Don't I have a right to self defense? And yes, I have been threatened with death by former students.
I lean far more toward your side of this argument. The biggest problem, as I mentioned would be how to ensure such a prohibition is ensured. It's not now and never has been. Another law won't stop someone that would actually follow through on those threats.