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Well said, Flint.

flintknapper wrote:I see nothing wrong with dialing "911" or removing yourself from a bad situation (running/walking away). This of course, assumes that both time and circumstance allow for it.

This may be unobtainable as the BG chooses when and where, as well as who.

flintknapper wrote: On the other hand, if your friend has the idea that every situation can be solved by simply calling (and waiting) for help to arrive......then she needs to witness a demonstration of how much damage can be done in the scope of 3 minutes (an excellent response time for LEO). Ask her (respectfully) to consider that.

You are 100 % correct, a whole lot can happen in three minutes.
Take a look at how much damage MMA fighters can inflict on each other in three minutes. How about if we consider multiple BG's, then what?
How long does it take someone to bleed out from an arterial knife wound? 1 or 2 mins. ?
You can be concussed. KO'ed - stowed in a van and miles down the road........

flintknapper wrote:

shooter_tx wrote:<snip>

Welcome to the forum!

I see nothing wrong with dialing "911" or removing yourself from a bad situation (running/walking away). This of course, assumes that both time and circumstance allow for it.

I also don't see anything wrong with either option. It's just that she was using those two misconceptions ("911 as panacea," and "you can always run away") to try and justify banning firearms.

On the other hand, if your friend has the idea that every situation can be solved by simply calling (and waiting) for help to arrive......then she needs to witness a demonstration of how much damage can be done in the scope of 3 minutes (an excellent response time for LEO). Ask her (respectfully) to consider that.

That's exactly where she was coming from. As mentioned earlier, I have a slew of resources regarding "duty to protect" whenever I encounter anyone espousing that false belief.

Within three days time, she knew that "absent a special relationship, the police have no duty to protect individual citizens".

There's obviously DeShaney (1989), but that always gets misconstrued as being about the state's relationship to a minor. In my experience, it's always Warren v. District of Columbia (1981) that makes people's jaws drop and truly understand that *they* (and no one else) are ultimately responsible for their own safety.

All too often... the police/authorities end up only being able to write a report, the damage is done, the BG is gone.

Taking responsibility for her own protection might be something for her to look into.

Some people will never do it, but... as long as they do not restrict my right to do so.....

And that's where the impetus for our discussion came about. She made a statement about the wholesale outlawing of firearms, and I couldn't abide by it. We ended up having a really good discussion over the next three days, and it's something we usually repeat 2-3 times a week.

I can live with it. It is a very personal choice...and each person must decide for themselves.

Agreed, totally. I used the VT tragedy as a teaching moment, for the people who took it to me ("Hey, did you hear about what happened at VT?" "Yes, but would you like me to tell you why that happened?").

One particuarly "anti" co-worker and I came to the following agreement: While she could [still] never bring herself to touch a gun or take the life of another person, she can now see why I would want to carry a gun on campus, and won't attempt to deny anyone else the right to be prepared for self-defense. (we'll just have to wait and see how she votes, though )

By the way, thanks for the hearty Texas [CHL Forum] welcome!

BTW, the law firm that hosted the text for Warren v. DC that I used to link to from my "duty to protect" page has either gone under, or removed the page, but it can still be accessed via the Internet Archive here.

I don't want to copy/paste the full text here because I want to honor the 10-year old daughter rule I read about while signing up earlier.

fm2 wrote:How long does it take someone to bleed out from an arterial knife wound? 1 or 2 mins. ?

ISTR Applegate did some studies on this for various cut locations. I don't have the book handy, but IIRC, three minutes was well beyond loss-of-consciousness time for virtually all of the cuts, and beyond the death time for several.

If you're unconscious, it'll almost certainly take responding officers a couple more minutes to prepare for and make entry, possibly another minute or more to find you, and then you'll be receiving minimal first aid at best until the ambulance crew arrives.

This lady didn't think she was in a dangerous place, raped and murdered in Crystal Beach, on Bolivar Peninsula:

http://blogs.galvnews.com/story.lasso?e ... 03b9ee09db

- Jim

Just finished replying to an email I received from the friend/colleague I'm trying to "convert" similar to LedJedi and his friend.....

She basically said:

Oh silly, I know that there are bad people in the world, I am just not going to provide the gun that I get killed with, is my theory.

I thought the "Oh silly" part was kind of telling. She's trying to pass logic/reason off with humor to "diffuse" the situation. Common in denial-type situations.

What's interesting here is that this all came out of a "Guns! What are they goo-od for? Absolutely nothing!" type "ban-them-all" comment she made.

KD5NRH wrote:

fm2 wrote:How long does it take someone to bleed out from an arterial knife wound? 1 or 2 mins. ?

ISTR Applegate did some studies on this for various cut locations. I don't have the book handy, but IIRC, three minutes was well beyond loss-of-consciousness time for virtually all of the cuts, and beyond the death time for several.

If you're unconscious, it'll almost certainly take responding officers a couple more minutes to prepare for and make entry, possibly another minute or more to find you, and then you'll be receiving minimal first aid at best until the ambulance crew arrives.

A person must lose about 20% of their blood volume to lose conciousness from blood loss alone.

For an average size man (about 180 lbs) with an arterial wound, this takes about 12 seconds.

Yeah, my Maw said something rather similar, but in relation to me.
I was like, "Maw, I'm not going to hand it to them."
"What if they take it."
"If I have a reason to pull it out, I'm not going to put it in a position to where they can grab it."
"What if they sneak up on you?"
"I won't have it out, if I haven't seen a threat already. Basically, the only way they are getting their grubby little paws on it, is, by prying it "FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS!!!!!"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA


I don't think she appreciated the last line, but I guffawed like a goober.
I do, however think she is the kind (oh, Goddess this sounds familiar) that is just going to worry, no matter how much logic you throw at her.

it's her job, and all...

llwatson wrote:

KD5NRH wrote:

fm2 wrote:How long does it take someone to bleed out from an arterial knife wound? 1 or 2 mins. ?

ISTR Applegate did some studies on this for various cut locations. I don't have the book handy, but IIRC, three minutes was well beyond loss-of-consciousness time for virtually all of the cuts, and beyond the death time for several.

If you're unconscious, it'll almost certainly take responding officers a couple more minutes to prepare for and make entry, possibly another minute or more to find you, and then you'll be receiving minimal first aid at best until the ambulance crew arrives.

A person must lose about 20% of their blood volume to lose conciousness from blood loss alone.

For an average size man (about 180 lbs) with an arterial wound, this takes about 12 seconds.

I lost consciousness when I donated a single pint of blood, and it wasn't blood sugar related, either. After two hours with no improvement, they finally called an ambulance. I was better after two liters of IV. I don't plan to give blood ever again and I'm not looking forward to bleeding in a fight.

Averages are good, but realize that there is a lot of individual-to-individual variance.

llwatson wrote:A person must lose about 20% of their blood volume to lose conciousness from blood loss alone.

For an average size man (about 180 lbs) with an arterial wound, this takes about 12 seconds.

This appears to assume a truly open artery; i.e. fully severed and exposed with no resistance to the flow of blood out of the body. IIRC, Applegate's numbers accounted for the most likely wound types in a knife fight; slashes deep enough to hit lesser protected arteries like the brachial/radial/ulnar, and stabs into more buried ones like the subclavian. Slashes have a nasty tendency to leave a wide-open exit path, while stabs leave a relatively small hole for the blood to get out, increasing the time-to-incapacitation even if the artery is actually severed.

Either way, it doesn't sound like fun, so I'm not volunteering to demo any of it.

OTOH, I recall someone telling about demonstrating what can happen in three minutes to a class at the range. I was thinking earlier tonight that a "what could you do in three minutes" video series would be an interesting idea: several three minute videos showing how many "A" (or -0 for the IDPA folks) hits you can get at 10 yards, or how much knife work, or even how many miles at the local racetrack various people can manage. Some folks don't think it's a long time to wait until they see it in terms of how many times you can be shot, or how many miles away from the scene the perp can take your family member while the police are getting there.

Any volunteers? I'd love to throw a couple dozen of those videos on a DVD, and it seems like it could be good publicity for CHL, especially with a few minutes of EMS folks explaining how critical each minute can be and/or combat veterans describing what three minutes in a real firefight is like.

GlockenHammer wrote:I lost consciousness when I donated a single pint of blood, and it wasn't blood sugar related, either.

That makes me smile.

When I was in college, the Army ROTC department was proud of always getting the plaque for 100% participation in the Red Cross blood drives held once per semester. It was a point of pride, and no small amount of peer pressure was applied to coerce donations.

"Peer pressure" takes on new meaning in a group of folks who can drop you for pushups in the middle of the student cafeteria.

Anyhoo... my junior year, my roommate was also ROTC, but he was deathly afraid of needles in general, and bleeding specifically. I/we persuaded him that donating blood wasn't so bad, so he and I lay on adjacent tables while the deed was done. After the needles were in, he said it wasn't so bad, and we cracked jokes while we raced to fill our bags (lots of competition in the Army, yanno! )

He actually finished a few minutes before I did, so he got a head-start on the mandatory 30 minutes of Koolaid and cookies. I was still finishing my snack when he got up to leave. He walked the length of the student center ballroom (about 50 yards), reached the top of the three steps up, whereupon his knees locked, his eyes rolled back, and the first thing that hit the marble floor was the back of his head.

Ouch. Perhaps I should point out that he was 6'2", 158 pounds, a walking poster for the Old Guard. In other words, a Q-tip with feet.

He didn't quit, though. He gave every semester after that. He was in the "Early Commissioning Program", because he had joined the National Guard at 17, so we were commissioned the same day (17 May 1985), even though I was a senior and he was a sophomore. Because of changing times, he couldn't get an active duty slot as a lieutenant when he graduated two years later, so he kept his reserve commission, and went active duty as an E-4. Already qualified as Airborne and Air Assault before he graduated, he joined the Screamin' Chicken.

One of the worst phone calls I ever received was in April, 1989. Shawn had died in a low-altitude night jump at Ft. Ord, after a double chute failure. He was a Pathfinder for the 101st Airborne. Posthumously promoted to Corporal, buried at Fort Smith national cemetery. He had been married less than two months.

RIP, Brendan Shawn Paxton, CPL, USA; 2LT, USAR.

Okay, enough reflection over absent companions... I'm still ticked that I can't give blood any more, because I lived in Germany from 1986-89. I could have mad cow, you know. Denny Crane!

GlockenHammer wrote: I lost consciousness when I donated a single pint of blood, and it wasn't blood sugar related, either. After two hours with no improvement, they finally called an ambulance. I was better after two liters of IV. I don't plan to give blood ever again and I'm not looking forward to bleeding in a fight.

Averages are good, but realize that there is a lot of individual-to-individual variance.

He's a quart low and... can you check the tire pressure. Fill er up.

heh, sorry, just came to mind. I know it's not a laughing matter.

llwatson, KD5NRH - I knew the bleed-out time was shorter than a min. Thanks for the data. We could compile all the data for loss of conciousness. After unconciousness happens, and probably some time before, you can't defend yourself.

In the Ranger Medic Handbook they list preventable causes of death in combat.
They shake out like this:
60% Bleeding to death from extremity wounds.
33% Tension pneumothorax
6% Airway obstruction (maxillofacial trauma)


The EMT have a special name for the first 5 minutes. Anyone know what it's called

KD5NRH - I like your idea. I realize folks focus on the time issue, but its really an initiative problem. If you get behind the curve in say the first 10 seconds, can you recover and regain the initiative. The response time really becomes a non-issue once viewed in the proper context.

fm2 wrote:llwatson, KD5NRH - I knew the bleed-out time was shorter than a min. Thanks for the data. We could compile all the data for loss of conciousness. After unconciousness happens, and probably some time before, you can't defend yourself.

You can't perform first aid on yourself after that, either, which is the best reason to get some training for your family and friends. With immediate aid, even with improvised supplies, the survival times increase by orders of magnitude. One of my scoutmasters was training for EMS, and he drilled into us just how important it is to unplug the airway and plug the leaks ASAP. Oneof these days, I need to get current on that stuff again.

In the Ranger Medic Handbook they list preventable causes of death in combat.
They shake out like this:
60% Bleeding to death from extremity wounds.
33% Tension pneumothorax
6% Airway obstruction (maxillofacial trauma)

I prefer the simplified breakdown:
33% Stuff you can fix
33% Stuff you might be able to fix
33% Stuff you should try to fix anyway
01% Not enough left to work on

The EMT have a special name for the first 5 minutes. Anyone know what it's called

Well, the last EMT I talked to at any length usually referred to it as "almost too late."

KD5NRH - I like your idea. I realize folks focus on the time issue, but its really an initiative problem. If you get behind the curve in say the first 10 seconds, can you recover and regain the initiative. The response time really becomes a non-issue once viewed in the proper context.

Ten seconds; probably not - most violent conflicts are pretty well decided in ten seconds or less. Look at it this way; with very little practice, my wife was shooting the 5-5-5-5 drill consistently with my 1911. (5 shots from five yards in a 5 inch circle in 5 seconds) That means that 10 seconds is plenty for a relatively inexperienced shooter to empty a .45ACP with good combat accuracy, including headshots. Two or three seconds might be enough if your opponent is just plain slow (don't annoy Jerry Miculek, he'll be on his second reload by then) or makes some mistakes, but he's really going to have to screw up to give you a ten-second comeback.

I think the biggest problem is that a lot of people have an underdeveloped concept of time; three seconds sounds like it's not time to do anything, and three minutes isn't very long to wait. The CHL qualifier puts it in a bit of perspective; I had time to tap-rack on one of the fast strings, and still got all my shots off with time to spare, but most people don't ever stop and see what they can do in x seconds or y minutes.