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ELB wrote:

ELB wrote:

TexasCajun wrote:Given the NYPD record of a lack of proficiency and accuracy, is anyone going to look at their training????

Rambling thoughts:

They do look at their training, and then try to fix training deficiencies with equipment changes. That's why the Glock has a "New York Trigger" and they banned the use of Kahrs for back up guns.

The 9mm seems to favor faster and lighter bullets, but I will be interested to see what really happened -- if they ever give details. I could imagine one ricochet hitting his coat, or passing through something else first, but four?

I wonder if he was wearing many layers of clothing? Doing some reading in another story, it seems this guy very likely had mental problems and was only occasionally employed, previous arrests. Says he lived in Manhattan, but wouldn't surprise me to find out he is currently homeless -- a lot of those folks tend to wear a lot of clothes, I've noticed. Easier to carry around I guess.

Oops: "Another shot grazed the wrist of bystander Lauran Code, a 46-year-old lingerie designer from California."


I like this too: "who lunged at them with an 8-inch knife". So a butcher knife maybe? No, the picture shows what looks like a folding spyderco with about a 3" or maybe at most 4" blade. You only get "8-inch knife" if you add the handle length as well.
http://nypost.com/2016/05/18/man-fatall ... n-midtown/

Probably a direct hit that also failed to penetrate.

Three sources I found on the interweb say the NYPD use 124gr Speer Gold Dot +P.

http://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/b ... p226-frame
http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapon ... ooner.aspx
http://americanhandgunner.com/police-am ... est-of-us/

Wonder if they might have been reduced recoil loads?

MeMelYup wrote:Wonder if they might have been reduced recoil loads?

I wouldn't think that would be likely for duty rounds.

MeMelYup wrote:Wonder if they might have been reduced recoil loads?

Like ELBs links say, they are more than likely using 124gr Speer Gold Dot +P.

ELB wrote:Three sources I found on the interweb say the NYPD use 124gr Speer Gold Dot +P.

http://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/b ... p226-frame
http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapon ... ooner.aspx
http://americanhandgunner.com/police-am ... est-of-us/

They said it could be a defective weapon or ammo. The weapon shot the ammo that was put in the weapon so it functioned correctly. I don't know what ammo they use but since the handgun laws in NYC are so strict then maybe they forgot that they are maybe using rubber bullets?
Maybe there is more to the story than what is reported. NAAAAAAAAAAH, they wouldn't do that!

twomillenium wrote:They said it could be a defective weapon or ammo. The weapon shot the ammo that was put in the weapon so it functioned correctly. I don't know what ammo they use but since the handgun laws in NYC are so strict then maybe they forgot that they are maybe using rubber bullets?
Maybe there is more to the story than what is reported. NAAAAAAAAAAH, they wouldn't do that!

Good thing I read all the posts before responding. I was also wondering why they were checking the weapons for malfunctions. Seems like they operated just fine and fired the rounds. The rubber bullet thing is funny. I wonder if they are positive that they actually hit they guy and his jacket stopped anything.

ELB wrote:Three sources I found on the interweb say the NYPD use 124gr Speer Gold Dot +P.

http://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/b ... p226-frame
http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapon ... ooner.aspx
http://americanhandgunner.com/police-am ... est-of-us/

But was that the ammo they were actually shooting? Did they have practice rounds loaded by mistake?

I have been carrying that same ammo. Never noticed an issue, but I am curious.

MechAg94 wrote:

ELB wrote:Three sources I found on the interweb say the NYPD use 124gr Speer Gold Dot +P.

http://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/b ... p226-frame
http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapon ... ooner.aspx
http://americanhandgunner.com/police-am ... est-of-us/

But was that the ammo they were actually shooting? Did they have practice rounds loaded by mistake?

I have been carrying that same ammo. Never noticed an issue, but I am curious.

Have you ever shot a person with a thick jacket?

I figure they use fmj for target practice which surely would of gone through. Maybe frangible ammo?

The Annoyed Man wrote:

Javier730 wrote:

crazy2medic wrote:Let me guess.......9mm?

Here we go again.

brhalltx wrote:We need something bigger and more powerful... Maybe make it 10mm...

Why stop there? Why not make it a 11mm (AKA .45 ACP)?

I knew you'd say that.

ELB wrote:I could imagine one ricochet hitting his coat, or passing through something else first, but four?

I'm grasping at straws here, just like everyone else. I can't imagine any scenario that fully explains it with duty ammo.

Over the years, there have been reports of policemen, in the heat of the moment, emptying their pistol into the ground about halfway between them and the BG. That's why the most renowned instructors preach, "front site, front site, front site".

I'm still thinking the guy was wearing more than just a Carhartt jacket, and that combined with a shallow angle hit maybe led to the bullets traveling through the clothing, parallel to the skin, rather than perpendicular (and into the body). I have read of people getting shot and having a round travel all the way to the other side of their bodies just underneath the skin, rather that straight through the core. Maybe that happened with the clothing.

ELB wrote:I'm still thinking the guy was wearing more than just a Carhartt jacket, and that combined with a shallow angle hit maybe led to the bullets traveling through the clothing, parallel to the skin, rather than perpendicular (and into the body). I have read of people getting shot and having a round travel all the way to the other side of their bodies just underneath the skin, rather that straight through the core. Maybe that happened with the clothing.

[sidebar]My dad was shot in the lower center chest (just above his solar plexus) with a japanese 6.5mm rifle bullet on Iwo Jima. The bullet hit a brass button on his field jacket, which broke up both the button and the bullet jacketing. The lead core was deflected (trailing tiny bits of brass button and copper jacketing) such that it stayed in his rib cage between two ribs, traveling all the way around to his back, where it exited just to the side of his spine. Small bits of bullet jacket and button did penetrate his chest cavity, but the bulk of the bullet's mass traveled as described. The bullet track remained visible on x-rays the rest of his life because of the tiny bits of brass and copper along the wound path - pieces of which would occasionally work their way to the surface and pop out of his skin. I remember seeing that happen once.[/sidebar]

A good friend of mine here was working as a IT project manager in London and was drinking in a pub with a friend when (long story shortened) his friend was shot in the upper front chest by a thug with a homemade pistol firing a charge of nuts and bolts, at a distance of several yards. His friend was wearing a heavy leather jacket. The impact was sufficient to raise quite a bruised welt on his friend's pectoral, but none of the shot penetrated the jacket leather, merely leaving a scuffed up area on an otherwise fairly new jacket.

There's always the possibility that all four bullets went straight through his torso and lodged in his clothing on the other side, and we only got half the story so far.