TexasCHLforum.com

Gen 11:7

G26ster wrote:

Abraham wrote: So, why is it necessary for other foreign places and names to be converted?

I think Abraham's question/point is being missed. It's not a question of HOW we got to this point, rather a question of WHY we cannot respect another country's language to call it what THEY call/pronounce it. In what we call Germany for example, they call it Deutchland. It doesn't matter if others call it Germany or not, and it's NOT a question of pronunciation. It's a question of failure to respect another country's language/culture to call it what THEY call it in the present day, in THEIR language. Why can't we? Is it too difficult? Too inconvenient? In Italy, THEY call it Italia, why can't everyone else just call it Italia? We made the switch with Chinese provinces and cities, and we don't change the pronunciation of foreign given and family names, so why can't we do the same for counties? Just MHO, which is worth what you paid for it.

I do tend to agree with you at some level.

• Missouri should end with an 'uh' sound, because the people there say it that way. But most of the US says it so that it rhymes with "happy".
• Nevada and Colorado both have a middle syllable that sound the same - to the locals - and that sound is the same 'a' sound as in "hat", not the 'o' sound in "hot".
• Staunton, VA is pronounced "Stant-in", not "Stont-in".
• And don't get me started on the Appalachian mountains that I grew up in. There is no long "A" sound in the middle of it!. The underlined 'a' has the same sound as the a in "at"., not the 'a' in "ate".

Vol Texan wrote:And don't get me started on the Appalachian mountains that I grew up in. There is no long "A" sound in the middle of it!. The underlined 'a' has the same sound as the a in "at"., not the 'a' in "ate".

Apple lat chee ah .
Lol, my poor chilluns went from the FRG to the Tri-Cities TN/VA to Texas in 12 year period. Add in a Nana from Philadelphia and a Polish/Mex Pops on one side, and a Minnesota squarehead grandad whose bride was a Georgia peach now known as "Mother R", and its a wonder anyone can understand what they are saying.
As my favorite sports talker from Johnson City, TN would say at sign off,
Pre she ate cha!

Vol Texan wrote:
I do tend to agree with you at some level.

• Missouri should end with an 'uh' sound, because the people there say it that way. But most of the US says it so that it rhymes with "happy".
• Nevada and Colorado both have a middle syllable that sound the same - to the locals - and that sound is the same 'a' sound as in "hat", not the 'o' sound in "hot".
• Staunton, VA is pronounced "Stant-in", not "Stont-in".
• And don't get me started on the Appalachian mountains that I grew up in. There is no long "A" sound in the middle of it!. The underlined 'a' has the same sound as the a in "at"., not the 'a' in "ate".

Your talking about pronunciation or "accents. I don't think that was the point Abraham or I were trying to make. It's NOT about pronunciation. I think it's impossible to pronounce Deuchland as "Germany." It's a question of stating the name of the city, country or person in the language it corresponds to. If someone says their name is Jose, you don't call them Joe or Joseph, you call them Jose (Ho-say). If their family name is Verde, you don't call them "Green." Same should be true of foreign cities, countries, etc. I think it's a matter of respect. And, if the world can do it for people (which it does), we should be able to do it for cities and countries. It ain't rocket science.

G26ster wrote:

Vol Texan wrote:
I do tend to agree with you at some level.

• Missouri should end with an 'uh' sound, because the people there say it that way. But most of the US says it so that it rhymes with "happy".
• Nevada and Colorado both have a middle syllable that sound the same - to the locals - and that sound is the same 'a' sound as in "hat", not the 'o' sound in "hot".
• Staunton, VA is pronounced "Stant-in", not "Stont-in".
• And don't get me started on the Appalachian mountains that I grew up in. There is no long "A" sound in the middle of it!. The underlined 'a' has the same sound as the a in "at"., not the 'a' in "ate".

Your talking about pronunciation or "accents. I don't think that was the point Abraham or I were trying to make. It's NOT about pronunciation. I think it's impossible to pronounce Deuchland as "Germany." It's a question of stating the name of the city, country or person in the language it corresponds to. If someone says their name is Jose, you don't call them Joe or Joseph, you call them Jose (Ho-say). If their family name is Verde, you don't call them "Green." Same should be true of foreign cities, countries, etc. I think it's a matter of respect. And, if the world can do it for people (which it does), we should be able to do it for cities and countries. It ain't rocket science.

Yes it is!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exonym_and_endonym

Dadtodabone wrote:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exonym_and_endonym

A very nice find.

Dadtodabone wrote:

Vol Texan wrote:And don't get me started on the Appalachian mountains that I grew up in. There is no long "A" sound in the middle of it!. The underlined 'a' has the same sound as the a in "at"., not the 'a' in "ate".

Apple lat chee ah .
Lol, my poor chilluns went from the FRG to the Tri-Cities TN/VA to Texas in 12 year period. Add in a Nana from Philadelphia and a Polish/Mex Pops on one side, and a Minnesota squarehead grandad whose bride was a Georgia peach now known as "Mother R", and its a wonder anyone can understand what they are saying.
As my favorite sports talker from Johnson City, TN would say at sign off,
Pre she ate cha!

Ha! I grew up in the Tri-Cities. Bristol was my home, and I went to college in Johnson City! "Y'all come back now, ya hear?"

I think you guys are way overthinking this. And that guy in Belgium was being obtuse, if not an outright jerk. If he was speaking English with you, he certainly knew what "Brussels" meant. English is very commonly spoken throughout Western Europe, and not just to native speakers like the Brits and Americans. It's often the "neutral" language between nations.

Each country developed its own culture and language, often from common origins, but each shaped by its own experiences and development. Sometimes they borrowed names and words from each other, sometimes came up with there own. Trying to jam "Deutschland" into the English language is not "respectful" to English speakers (altho the RAF guys I was around like to call the Germans "Deutschers"). If it's more useful, it will happen on its own, but fluffing up outrage because we don't say the name of that particular country the same way the Krauts do is looking for offence where none exists.

Not even the countries right next door to each other use each other's names. When I was stationed right on the border of Germany, Netherlands, and Belgium, just north of Luxembourg, it was not unusual for town in the area to have there names -- a German one, a French one, and a Flemish one. Woe to those who used the wrong one, tho! Some of the locals who knew I spoke some German warned me to use English anyway when first in a new (to me) town, because if the local culture was French or Flemish or Dutch, they would be, if not hostile, at least not helpful to a "German". One of the tip-offs to this was to see which of the names on the placard outside of town (which often had the name in three languages) was spray-painted over and which was not.

The major city south of me was called Aachen, Aken, and Aix-la-Chappelle, all variants of the original Roman name of Aquae Granni, no doubt influence by the Latin word for water, aquae. It was good to know this since all three were used on road signs. But if you said "Aachen" everyone knew what you meant. The Italian name for Aachen is still Aquisgrana -- should the Italians be offended because the Teutonic tribes and their descendants decided to change it to Aachen? Silly. Not would it create angst where none is warranted, it would take some of the fun and richness out of language.

By the way, where I group in southern Indiana, there was a very tiny town that had more people below ground in the cemetery than on the census rolls called "Houston." It was locally pronounced "house -- tun", like phonetics would indicate, not "hueston" like all these people around me now say. Let's try to get everyone in Texas to pronounce it the right way, like the Hoosiers do!

Vol Texan wrote:

Dadtodabone wrote:

Vol Texan wrote:And don't get me started on the Appalachian mountains that I grew up in. There is no long "A" sound in the middle of it!. The underlined 'a' has the same sound as the a in "at"., not the 'a' in "ate".

Apple lat chee ah .
Lol, my poor chilluns went from the FRG to the Tri-Cities TN/VA to Texas in 12 year period. Add in a Nana from Philadelphia and a Polish/Mex Pops on one side, and a Minnesota squarehead grandad whose bride was a Georgia peach now known as "Mother R", and its a wonder anyone can understand what they are saying.
As my favorite sports talker from Johnson City, TN would say at sign off,
Pre she ate cha!

Ha! I grew up in the Tri-Cities. Bristol was my home, and I went to college in Johnson City! "Y'all come back now, ya hear?"

The Mini Dome! I've got a Buc, a Vol, a Longhorn, and an Aggie for kids. My eldest daughter is teaching down 26 at Mars Hill. Eldest son got his MBA @ Milligan(US News top 10 Southern College)as well as a wife, female to male enrollment 65-35.

Vol Texan wrote:Now, I don't want to get off on a rant here, but...

...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

You had me convinced until your last sentence.
Loco Guillermo

WildBill wrote:

Vol Texan wrote:Now, I don't want to get off on a rant here, but...

...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

You had me convinced until your last sentence.
Loco Guillermo

Nothing wrong with a little tribute to Dennis Miller, huh?

ELB wrote:I think you guys are way overthinking this. And that guy in Belgium was being obtuse, if not an outright jerk. If he was speaking English with you, he certainly knew what "Brussels" meant. English is very commonly spoken throughout Western Europe, and not just to native speakers like the Brits and Americans. It's often the "neutral" language between nations.

Each country developed its own culture and language, often from common origins, but each shaped by its own experiences and development. Sometimes they borrowed names and words from each other, sometimes came up with there own. Trying to jam "Deutschland" into the English language is not "respectful" to English speakers (altho the RAF guys I was around like to call the Germans "Deutschers"). If it's more useful, it will happen on its own, but fluffing up outrage because we don't say the name of that particular country the same way the Krauts do is looking for offence where none exists.

Not even the countries right next door to each other use each other's names. When I was stationed right on the border of Germany, Netherlands, and Belgium, just north of Luxembourg, it was not unusual for town in the area to have there names -- a German one, a French one, and a Flemish one. Woe to those who used the wrong one, tho! Some of the locals who knew I spoke some German warned me to use English anyway when first in a new (to me) town, because if the local culture was French or Flemish or Dutch, they would be, if not hostile, at least not helpful to a "German". One of the tip-offs to this was to see which of the names on the placard outside of town (which often had the name in three languages) was spray-painted over and which was not.

The major city south of me was called Aachen, Aken, and Aix-la-Chappelle, all variants of the original Roman name of Aquae Granni, no doubt influence by the Latin word for water, aquae. It was good to know this since all three were used on road signs. But if you said "Aachen" everyone knew what you meant. The Italian name for Aachen is still Aquisgrana -- should the Italians be offended because the Teutonic tribes and their descendants decided to change it to Aachen? Silly. Not would it create angst where none is warranted, it would take some of the fun and richness out of language.

By the way, where I group in southern Indiana, there was a very tiny town that had more people below ground in the cemetery than on the census rolls called "Houston." It was locally pronounced "house -- tun", like phonetics would indicate, not "hueston" like all these people around me now say. Let's try to get everyone in Texas to pronounce it the right way, like the Hoosiers do!

I don't think anyone is "fluffing up outrage." It's just an observation. What has been stated here are unusual situations, where language and cultures clash. We had no trouble adapting to Beijing, or Mumbai, so why is it so disrespectful to an English speqker to adapt to Deutschland. If it's not offensive to you to call Jose Verde, Jose Verde while speaking English, why would it be offesive to an English speaker to say Deutschland when speaking English? I have no German roots or connection, and only use it as an example.I believe each country has an official name, or if they have multiple names, pick one.

As for your Houston example, once again that's pronunciation, not a completely different name. BTW, Houston Station in NYC is pronounced Howston too. And all native New Yorkers say Howston. The example I gave of Germany vs Deutschland is not about pronunciation. My whole point was to agree with Abraham and call countries or cities by the official name in that language, and not have hundreds of names for the same place based on ones own language or preference. And yes, I do think it disrespectful to think or say, "Sorry, but I refuse to use the name of your country or city in your language because that's not how we say it in MY language. I think it's disrespecful when someone calls me "old timer" instead of "sir" but I'd hardly call it outrage.

Dadtodabone wrote:

G26ster wrote:

Vol Texan wrote:
I do tend to agree with you at some level.

• Missouri should end with an 'uh' sound, because the people there say it that way. But most of the US says it so that it rhymes with "happy".
• Nevada and Colorado both have a middle syllable that sound the same - to the locals - and that sound is the same 'a' sound as in "hat", not the 'o' sound in "hot".
• Staunton, VA is pronounced "Stant-in", not "Stont-in".
• And don't get me started on the Appalachian mountains that I grew up in. There is no long "A" sound in the middle of it!. The underlined 'a' has the same sound as the a in "at"., not the 'a' in "ate".

Your talking about pronunciation or "accents. I don't think that was the point Abraham or I were trying to make. It's NOT about pronunciation. I think it's impossible to pronounce Deuchland as "Germany." It's a question of stating the name of the city, country or person in the language it corresponds to. If someone says their name is Jose, you don't call them Joe or Joseph, you call them Jose (Ho-say). If their family name is Verde, you don't call them "Green." Same should be true of foreign cities, countries, etc. I think it's a matter of respect. And, if the world can do it for people (which it does), we should be able to do it for cities and countries. It ain't rocket science.

Yes it is!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exonym_and_endonym

Thank you! According to Vol Texan, I've pronouncing 'Nevada' correctly all my life, and 'Colorado' incorrectly all my life. I don't care. Frankly, when I was a Californian, it didn't bother me in the least if someone wanted to call it "Cally-for-nye-yay". Also, it should be noted that the state of Missouruh is spelled "Missouri" because the phonetic "Miz-zoo-ree" was the ethnic name of the Native American people who inhabited the region before the white man showed up. The "uh" at the end is itself a product of a changing pattern of speech. It's a safe bet that, when the European white man to the east (who spoke with a proper British accent at the time) first wrote down the ethnic name, he spelled it with the "i" at the end because that is how it sounded to him when he first learned it and catalogued it as being pronounced "Miz-zoo-ree". The "ee" at the end became an "uh" as the region's own distinct English dialect began to appear......in the same way that "all of you" >> "you all" >> "y'all" or "all y'all". So who's wrong now?

• [sidebar]
  I agree with the idea that if a guy introduces himself to you as José, then that's what you should call him out of respect, and not Joe or Joseph........unless you become his friend, that's what his friends call him - kind of the male-bonding version of "pet names". My first name is Christopher, but I've hated being called that most of my life, and "Chris" is what I go by. I hate being called "Christopher" because, as a child, the only time I was ever called that was by my father when I was in trouble with him. (To complicate matters, my mother, who is French, did the same thing.....except is was the French "Christophe" without the "r" at the end; so I hate that version as well.) Otherwise, I've always been "Chris". So when a total stranger is presumptuous enough to call me by my full first name instead of by "Mr Mylastname" or "Chris", he or she gets an immediate but polite correction from me. If I am introducing myself to you in an informal sitution, I'll say, "Hi, I'm Chris Mylastname". If it's a formal situation, I'll say "I'm Christopher J. Mylastname, but my friends call me 'Chris'", and leave it up to the other person to signal to me whether or not they wish the relationship to remain formal my calling me "Mr" or "Chris".
  
  One of the things I really appreciated when I first moved to Texas was the use of "sir" and "ma'am" when my wife and I were being addressed by young people or strangers. I think that formality is important because it is a sign of respect. It acknowledges to its object that he or she gets to set the terms of the relationship, by either keeping it formal, or permitting familiarity. Whenever I am treated with that kind of respect, I am very quick to allow familiarity. When I'm not conceded that respect, then I don't allow the familiarity.
  [/sidebar]

But as to the names of places, the rules of Exonyms and Entonyms must apply for a number of reasons. As the wiki page linked above by dadtothebone points out, the word for "China" in Chinese is "Zhongguo".......but unless you speak Chinese (whichever dialect), you couldn't possibly know that (I certainly didn't, until I read that wiki page). The fact is that English is, for better or for worse, the "Lingua Franca" of international trade and diplomacy; and it is very natural for the people of one country to use their native language's version of Lingua Franca name for another country. Thus, to a Frenchman, "China" is "Chine" (pronounced "sheen"). Now, the way that China is throwing its weight around in the world lately, that may change some day. In the past, other languages have served that role. At the height of the Roman Empire, Latin was the Lingua Franca. In more clearly defined regions, such as the pacific islands, a form of pidgin combining English, Polynesian, and French was the Lingua Franca. Creole is another even more localized Lingua Franca. But globally, for now, English is the Lingua Franca of international communication, and thus, China is China, and not Zhongguo......and that is not a matter of disrespect, it is a matter of communication.

Thus:

1. To a German-speaking German speaking in German to German-speaker, "Germany" is "Deutschland";
2. To a German-speaking German speaking in English to another English-speaker, "Germany" is "Germany";
3. To a German-speaking German speaking in French to another French-speaker, "Germany" is "Allemagne";
4. To an English-speaking American speaking in English to anyone else, "Germany" is "Germany", and not "Deutschland";
5. To an English-speaking American speaking in German to another German-speaker, "Germany" is "Deutschland";
6. To an English-speaking American speaking in French to another French-speaker, "Germany" is "Allemagne", and not "Deutschland";
7. To a French Speaking neighbor of Germany speaking in French to another French-speaker it is "Allemagne" and not "Deutschland";
8. To a French-speaker speaking in English to another English-speaker, "Germany" is "Germany" and not "Allemagne";
9. And if that same French-speaker is speaking in German to another German-speaker, "Germany" is "Deutschland" and not "Allemagne".

.......and that's not a sign of disrespect; its a simple matter of linguistics and communication.

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Thus:

[*]To an English-speaking American speaking in English to anyone else, "Germany" is "Germany", and not "Deutschland";
[*]To an English-speaking American speaking in German to another German-speaker, "Germany" is "Deutschland";

Interesting TAM. OK, let's forget about respect, accents, pronunciation, and all that. Changing the language and the name, and based on your list above, I gather that even though the man's given and family name is Jose Verde:

[*]To an English-speaking American speaking in English to anyone else, "Joe Green" is "Joe Green", and not "Jose Verde";
[*]To an English-speaking American speaking in Spanish to another Spanish-speaker, "Joe Green" is "Jose Verde"

I think not. I think Jose Verde is Jose Verde regardless of the language spoken. So, I'm still confused as to why the world does not change "peoples" name to suit the local language, but feel they must change "nations/cities" names to suit the local language. Perhaps I've got this all wrong, but I think that was the OP's original point.

Oh, and where's that Peiking Duck I ordered? I'm not buying this Beijing stuff.

This topic has been of interest to me through the years. Just taking the example of Germany vs Deutschland here in the thread I did a quick google and came up with a pretty reasonable sounding explanation. I have not chased the other links yet but just this one sheds some light on the topic.

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Deutschlan ... in-English