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Re: I deal with this every day...

Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:56 pm
by G26ster
Liberty wrote:
G26ster wrote: I'm not doubting that the M16 and M4 are AR-15 "pattern" guns, or that M16 and M4 are military designations for the AR-15 "pattern," but without the select fire switch, the civilian model AR-15 is neither a "weapon of war" nor an assault rifle used by any military. So, by placing the words "civilian model" before AR-15 should make my questions entirely accurate IMHO.
Yes, That's what I was trying to say.
OK, we agree. :cheers2:

Trying to come up with an analogy I noted that Kyle Busch won the 2015 Sprint Car championship in a Toyota Camry. Wow, I never knew my wife's Camry was a NASCAR race car! Can't wait to try it out :mrgreen:

Re: I deal with this every day...

Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:28 pm
by bblhd672
G26ster wrote:
bblhd672 wrote:
G26ster wrote:I don't own, or care to own, an AR-15,
That sounds like an issue that needs to be addressed by your local FFL! :biggrinjester:

How are you going to fight off the zombie horde without a beautiful black rifle (also available in other colors)? :biggrinjester:
After I turned in my M1 Garand in 1963, Uncle Sam loaned me am M14. Liked both, qualified expert in both. Liked the 1911 really too! In 1968, prior to deployment to RVN he loaned me an M16. Hated it, only qualified Marksman! Geez. Fortunately I didn't go overseas as Infantry, as I went to flight school and when I got over there he lent me a S&W Model 10 revolver, and gave me 6 rounds. Guess I was supposed to use it on myself in the event I went down and was about to be captured :shock: They also issued me an M16, but it doesn't fit in the Cobra cockpit, so it stayed home everyday. Best used when the BG's were "in the wire." :mrgreen:

My Zombie defense is a couple of WWII M1 Carbines with 30 rd mags. Love the carbine, and can hit a Zombie at 100 yds, no problem. Good thing they walk real slow. I'm more of a "collector" than a recreational shooter, or hunter. Went hunting once. Asked my self while out there freezing one morning how I wound up back in the Infantry, freezing my butt off, trapesing all over creation, eating out of a can, and sleeping on the ground. Not fun. besides, I don't like wild game, and I've tried it all. Well, bacon is the exception :mrgreen:

I collect military revolvers dating back to the 19th century, and most are very low powered, but really heavy enough to hurt a Zombie if I throw one at him/her. :cheers2:
I qualified marksman with M14 and 1911 in late 70's for watch standing on sub. Always wanted a M1 Garand.

Re: I deal with this every day...

Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:38 pm
by TexasTornado
G26ster wrote:
I don't think the pro-gun lobby puts forth much information to counter any of the false claims by the anti-gun lobby....
Just the opposite actually. The pro-gun lobby shares the false claims political cartoons etc. with pro-gun citizens to rile us up against the anti-gun lobby. They actually pay them royalties to reproduce this information so that they can be sure we will show up to vote against anti-gun legislation and those who would pass it.

This information was in the book Armed which is ine of three books I'm reading for my Violence and Gun Control course.

Re: I deal with this every day...

Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:53 am
by Noggin
jb2012 wrote:Well maybe not every day but seriously, probably once a week. Unless you actually visit a college campus, you probably wouldn't even believe some of the things that I have heard about guns and the gun control argument. You wouldn't believe the things I've heard TEACHERS say!! I'm convinced that people just make stuff up as they speak.
speaking as someone who lives in College Station (well OK just outside the city limits) and who is married to a former Aggie, I wonder just how much of that sort of thinking you would find at A&M? One thing I noticed when I took my licence to carry course was half the class seemed to consist of female college students. As a side note, I am a refugee from the land of maximum gun control across the pond.

Re: I deal with this every day...

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:59 am
by E.Marquez
Liberty wrote: I'm nit picking I know, but we need to be accurate when presenting our case to the other side.
An M16 or M4 is an AR15.
If picking nits, then NO an AR 15 Semi Auto rifle is NOT an M4 or M16 Select fire Assault rifle.

No more then a Volkswagen is a Porsche .. yes both are cars, both are german manufacture , both even came at one time with a flat 4 cylinder motor, but one is not the other, nor capable of each others abilities.

No more than a All Wheel drive Minivan is a Jeep YJ yes both can be had in full time all wheel drive, but one is not the other, nor capable of each others abilities.

:tiphat: :thumbs2:

Re: I deal with this every day...

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 7:43 am
by Liberty
E.Marquez wrote:
Liberty wrote: I'm nit picking I know, but we need to be accurate when presenting our case to the other side.
An M16 or M4 is an AR15.
If picking nits, then NO an AR 15 Semi Auto rifle is NOT an M4 or M16 Select fire Assault rifle.

No more then a Volkswagen is a Porsche .. yes both are cars, both are german manufacture , both even came at one time with a flat 4 cylinder motor, but one is not the other, nor capable of each others abilities.

No more than a All Wheel drive Minivan is a Jeep YJ yes both can be had in full time all wheel drive, but one is not the other, nor capable of each others abilities.

:tiphat: :thumbs2:
True, but the phrase I was commenting on did not use the modifier Semi-Automatic.
The original statement "Follow up with, "if that's true, why is it that not one single military in the world, including our own, uses the AR-15 as an assault rifle?" is incorrect and could be claimed to be a lie or deception by the other side. I believe we need to be accurate in making our case, and not being the folks that use distorted facts and truths like the other side.

Of course the M4 and M16 are AR-15s , although they are not "semi-auto only AR-15s".

As a side note, is the additional feature of full auto or burst mode a huge difference in practicality? I never thought so. Choices are always good, But I consider the civilian high-end AR-15s available today to be higher performance than the the standard M4 / M16s that are at war today , Certainly better performers than what they let me use in my day.

Re: I deal with this every day...

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:19 am
by Mel
Noggin wrote:
jb2012 wrote:Well maybe not every day but seriously, probably once a week. Unless you actually visit a college campus, you probably wouldn't even believe some of the things that I have heard about guns and the gun control argument. You wouldn't believe the things I've heard TEACHERS say!! I'm convinced that people just make stuff up as they speak.
speaking as someone who lives in College Station (well OK just outside the city limits) and who is married to a former Aggie, I wonder just how much of that sort of thinking you would find at A&M? One thing I noticed when I took my licence to carry course was half the class seemed to consist of female college students. As a side note, I am a refugee from the land of maximum gun control across the pond.
Once an Aggie, always an Aggie! A "former Aggie" would be one who "defects"!

Re: I deal with this every day...

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:54 am
by jmorris
Liberty wrote:.......

Of course the M4 and M16 are AR-15s , although they are not "semi-auto only AR-15s".

As a side note, is the additional feature of full auto or burst mode a huge difference in practicality? I never thought so. Choices are always good, But I consider the civilian high-end AR-15s available today to be higher performance than the the standard M4 / M16s that are at war today , Certainly better performers than what they let me use in my day.
I will agree that they're all AR platform rifles, I disagree that M16/M4s are AR-15s.

Agree with your second statement wholly.

Re: I deal with this every day...

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:46 pm
by Skiprr
The AR-15 first went into service, officially--and without the persistence of just a few men, it never would have--in December 1961 when Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara authorized a purchase of 1,000. The rifles were called "AR-15" and had full-auto select-fire. A lot of the U.S. advisors in Vietnam were already using AR-15s purchased from Colt, and they were beginning to surface all over the place in the conflict, including with the South Vietnamese.

In May 1962 Air Force General Curtis LeMay finally got a requisition for 8,500 of the rifles approved. He'd been trying to procure them since July 1960. The Ordnance Corps had done its best to stymie the adoption of the AR-15, and the matter had to actually go before Congress for investigation of why the Ordnance Corps was black-balling the AR-15. Even after that, one test by the Corps in the arctic showed the rifles to be inaccurate and prone to malfunction. When Eugene Stoner heard this, he got on a plane bound for Alaska. What he found was that the test rifles had been tampered with: parts misaligned and damaged, and front sights removed and replaced with a tacked-on piece of welding rod. Stoner repaired the test guns, and afterward they performed as expected.

On November 4, 1963, Colt got an order for 104,000 of the rifles. It was as of this shipment that the "M16" designation was first applied. So full-auto "AR-15s" had been in military service--though not as the ordained rifle for all branches--for almost two years before the term M16 was applied. Also in that order were the first M16A1s...identical except that they had a forward assist.

The M16A1 was in use for 20 years. The M16A2, a partial redesign around the then-new SS109/XM855 cartridge and replacing full-auto mode with a three-shot burst mode, was first purchased by the Marine Corps in November 1983. The first "M4" deliveries began in August 1994. This was essentially the M16A2 with a 14.5 inch barrel and a telescoping stock. the M4A1 is identical to the M4 except that its carry handle is removeable.

Apropos of nothing, but that's the three-minute overview that reporters for the main-stream media never bother to read.

Re: I deal with this every day...

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 6:24 pm
by TexasJohnBoy
Skiprr wrote:The AR-15 first went into service, officially--and without the persistence of just a few men, it never would have--in December 1961 when Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara authorized a purchase of 1,000. The rifles were called "AR-15" and had full-auto select-fire. A lot of the U.S. advisors in Vietnam were already using AR-15s purchased from Colt, and they were beginning to surface all over the place in the conflict, including with the South Vietnamese.

In May 1962 Air Force General Curtis LeMay finally got a requisition for 8,500 of the rifles approved. He'd been trying to procure them since July 1960. The Ordnance Corps had done its best to stymie the adoption of the AR-15, and the matter had to actually go before Congress for investigation of why the Ordnance Corps was black-balling the AR-15. Even after that, one test by the Corps in the arctic showed the rifles to be inaccurate and prone to malfunction. When Eugene Stoner heard this, he got on a plane bound for Alaska. What he found was that the test rifles had been tampered with: parts misaligned and damaged, and front sights removed and replaced with a tacked-on piece of welding rod. Stoner repaired the test guns, and afterward they performed as expected.

On November 4, 1963, Colt got an order for 104,000 of the rifles. It was as of this shipment that the "M16" designation was first applied. So full-auto "AR-15s" had been in military service--though not as the ordained rifle for all branches--for almost two years before the term M16 was applied. Also in that order were the first M16A1s...identical except that they had a forward assist.

The M16A1 was in use for 20 years. The M16A2, a partial redesign around the then-new SS109/XM855 cartridge and replacing full-auto mode with a three-shot burst mode, was first purchased by the Marine Corps in November 1983. The first "M4" deliveries began in August 1994. This was essentially the M16A2 with a 14.5 inch barrel and a telescoping stock. the M4A1 is identical to the M4 except that its carry handle is removeable.

Apropos of nothing, but that's the three-minute overview that reporters for the main-stream media never bother to read.
Human Encyclopedia.

Re: I deal with this every day...

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:44 pm
by Noggin
Skiprr wrote: The Ordnance Corps had done its best to stymie the adoption of the AR-15, and the matter had to actually go before Congress for investigation of why the Ordnance Corps was black-balling the AR-15.
Were the corps doing that because they did not want "to rock the NATO boat" over 7.62mm standardisation? I know that the perception in Europe was that the US having first pushed for standardisation on the 7.62 round then almost immediately afterwards decided to do ignore the standard and go for something new anyway.

Re: I deal with this every day...

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:58 pm
by Skiprr
Noggin wrote:
Skiprr wrote: The Ordnance Corps had done its best to stymie the adoption of the AR-15, and the matter had to actually go before Congress for investigation of why the Ordnance Corps was black-balling the AR-15.
Were the corps doing that because they did not want "to rock the NATO boat" over 7.62mm standardisation? I know that the perception in Europe was that the US having first pushed for standardisation on the 7.62 round then almost immediately afterwards decided to do ignore the standard and go for something new anyway.
I don't want to shove this any more off-topic--but, then, I already did, didn't I?--and it's tough to speculate about the Ordnance Corps situation. But I will. NATO may have been a factor, but there's actually something of a gap in there, and I kinda don't think the Ordnance Corps felt any pressure over it.

The 7.62x51 was adopted by NATO in August 1954, based on the Franklin Industries T65E3 which was first tested in 1950 and remained unchanged through the NATO adoption. The AR-15 round didn't start out as a .223 at all. Eugene Stoner's first design in 1957 used the .222 Remington cartridge. Stoner sought the assistance of Robert Huffman to make adjustments to the round and, subsequently, Sierra Bullet Company made the 55-grain boat-tail loaded by Remington into the ".222 Special" that increased pressure, had a higher muzzle velocity and a longer range. The ".222 Special," with no further change, became the 5.56×45 Ball M193 and the .223.

The AR-15 with the new round first hit the radar of the Ordnance Corps, I believe, in Q1 1958 when General William Wyman at Ft. Benning ordered the first tests of the new rifle/round combination. It was with the large 1963 order from Colt and the appearance of the M16 that the U.S military first began any broad use of the 5.56x45mm round. It wasn't until 1977 that NATO adopted it as a standard caliber. There's admittedly a lot of lead time involved, but there was about a decade in between NATO's adoption of the 7.62x51 and the first time the 5.56 could have really come to its attention, and there was a gap of 23 years in there between 7.62 and 5.56 adoption.

If I had to guess, I'd say the crux of the resistance to the AR-15 came down to one man, Dr. Fred Carten, Colonel Rene Studler's replacement in 1953 in the Ordnance Corps as Chief of Small Arms Research and Development. Controversy followed Dr. Carten from almost his day in the new job. He's largely "credited" with having blackballed the FN-FAL in the U.S. military, championing instead the T44, essentially a modified Springfield Model 1903.

Remember testing of the AR-15 in frigid Alaska that caused Eugene Stoner to hop on a plane? The FN-FAL had bested, badly, the T44 in testing at Ft. Benning. Carten convinced the Chief of Staff that a Soviet attack, if it occurred, would happen in the dead of winter, not during a Georgia summer. He won a series of arctic tests in October 1953 in Alaska. Prior, the T44s to be tested were winterized: trigger guards enlarged to accommodate thick gloves, a pressure relief valve added, wooden stocks reinforced with steel rods, all parts lubricated with appropriate sub-zero oils. The FN-FALs were shipped straight from Ft. Benning to Alaska with no further maintenance. Guess which performed better in the ice and snow?

Sound familiar? History might have been very different had Stoner not immediately flown to Ft. Greeley, Alaska, and seen and corrected what had been done to the test AR-15s. It's fairly common opinion that Carten nixed the FN-FAL, and tried to do the same to the AR-15.

In his book American Rifle: A Biography, Alexander Rose wrote:
Within Ordnance, however, it was an open secret that the T44 victory had been fixed. Even one of its firmest proponents in Carten's office, A.C. Bonkemeyer, confidentially told Colonel Rayle (the new head of Springfield's R&D division) not to bother making too many refinements to the T44 because it was "so close to being a dead duck, you would be better off to spend the funds and effort of future weapons."
The AR-15 and 5.56 round had a number of influential proponents, including General Wyman, Bill Davis (Chief of the Small Arms Branch at Aberdeen Proving Ground), Air Force General Curtis LeMay, and even Secretary of Defense McNamara. And it didn't hurt that Stoner was so hands-on, or that Colt bought the rights to the AR-15 and AR-10 in February 1959. Otherwise America's most popular sporting rifle might never have been.

Now back to your regularly scheduled Topic...

Re: I deal with this every day...

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:02 pm
by Skiprr
TexasJohnBoy wrote:Human Encyclopedia.
Not even hardly. I wrote a piece about the AR-15 a couple of years ago, but still had to go back and look up dates, names, and places. I do remember where my car keys and wallet are, so some neurons still work...

Re: I deal with this every day...

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:27 pm
by TexasTornado
Skiprr wrote:
TexasJohnBoy wrote:Human Encyclopedia.
Not even hardly. I wrote a piece about the AR-15 a couple of years ago, but still had to go back and look up dates, names, and places. I do remember where my car keys and wallet are, so some neurons still work...
I have the hardest time remembering where my keys and wallet are lol. Been thinking about getting some of these so I can locate them with my phone.

https://chipolo.net/shop

Re: I deal with this every day...

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:03 pm
by Dadtodabone
TexasTornado wrote:
Skiprr wrote:
TexasJohnBoy wrote:Human Encyclopedia.
Not even hardly. I wrote a piece about the AR-15 a couple of years ago, but still had to go back and look up dates, names, and places. I do remember where my car keys and wallet are, so some neurons still work...
I have the hardest time remembering where my keys and wallet are lol. Been thinking about getting some of these so I can locate them with my phone.

https://chipolo.net/shop
You know where your phone is?