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As noted in TFC Podcast No. 22 (@39:13), a private college or university can render the entire campus off-limits, except for parking lots where an LTC can store their handgun in their own locked vehicle. If the school only wants to enforce a rule or policy against faculty, staff and students, then they do not have to post 30.06 signs. If they want to be able to prosecute an LTC for having a handgun in an off-limits areas, then they must post 30.06 signs.

Chas.

Thanks Charles. Small correction: you address it at 39:13 in your podcast.

mloamiller wrote:If I'm understanding this correctly, all the "opt out" clause for a private university does is allow them to essentially post the entire campus as off limits, which public colleges can't do. Public colleges can post certain locations, but are specifically barred from prohibiting carry on the entire campus (411.2031).

In both cases, they still have to post the valid 30.06 signage for any prohibition to have any legal impact.

That is what distinguishes a private or independent school from others. Others may make 'reasonable' rules regarding prohibitions on campus and can not make broad stroke generalized prohibitions. Private institutions are not held to this same "reasonable rule" standard and may completely opt out entirely and generally. Once they have then made that decision their next problem is to inform the world using 30.06. And it is a problem. How does a large campus school give proper 30.06 notice that encompasses an entire campus complex (if that is what they intend to do). Answer...the same way a huge mall would do it.

Assuming signage is the preferred method, they must meet the 30.06 standards...

the signs must be compliant as to design

the signs must be conspicuously posted....(my definition of conspicuous taken from 30.05 and modified is...."a sign or signs posted in such a way that they are reasonably likely to come to the attention of the persons for which the message thereon is intended.'

the signs must be clearly visible to the public

My university, for example, is, I guess, relying on osmosis to get the word out. They have no signs but claim they have opted out. That's peachy. 30.06 says nothing about osmosis.

So a big campus would need a lot of clearly and publicly visible signs located in enough places and such a way that they would be reasonably likely to come to the attention of anyone trying to enter onto the campus with a concealed gun.

tex

thetexan wrote:

mloamiller wrote:If I'm understanding this correctly, all the "opt out" clause for a private university does is allow them to essentially post the entire campus as off limits, which public colleges can't do. Public colleges can post certain locations, but are specifically barred from prohibiting carry on the entire campus (411.2031).

In both cases, they still have to post the valid 30.06 signage for any prohibition to have any legal impact.

That is what distinguishes a private or independent school from others. Others may make 'reasonable' rules regarding prohibitions on campus and can not make broad stroke generalized prohibitions. Private institutions are not held to this same "reasonable rule" standard and may completely opt out entirely and generally. Once they have then made that decision their next problem is to inform the world using 30.06. And it is a problem. How does a large campus school give proper 30.06 notice that encompasses an entire campus complex (if that is what they intend to do). Answer...the same way a huge mall would do it.

Assuming signage is the preferred method, they must meet the 30.06 standards...

the signs must be compliant as to design

the signs must be conspicuously posted....(my definition of conspicuous taken from 30.05 and modified is...."a sign or signs posted in such a way that they are reasonably likely to come to the attention of the persons for which the message thereon is intended.'

the signs must be clearly visible to the public

My university, for example, is, I guess, relying on osmosis to get the word out. They have no signs but claim they have opted out. That's peachy. 30.06 says nothing about osmosis.

So a big campus would need a lot of clearly and publicly visible signs located in enough places and such a way that they would be reasonably likely to come to the attention of anyone trying to enter onto the campus with a concealed gun.

tex

With the students and staff it's easy to provide notice with written like in the rules and policy book or simple verbal "no guns allowed on campus" during the start of school meeting. The issue lies with informing visitors and general public. My uni has a big event center used for concerts and shows for the public. No signs or any other form of effective notice so nothing to stop a LTC holder from attending an event armed. The uni board may not know this and I'm not going to tell them either.

Nothing will "legally" prevent a student or faculty member from carrying either in the absence of 30.06 compliant notice...However the probability of expulsion or termination of employment certainly exists, with the exception of firearms in vehicles in the parking areas and streets.

ScottDLS wrote:Nothing will "legally" prevent a student or faculty member from carrying either in the absence of 30.06 compliant notice...However the probability of expulsion or termination of employment certainly exists, with the exception of firearms in vehicles in the parking areas and streets.

Our staff and students were told "no firearms allowed on university property" during the start of the year meeting in August. They all received legal verbal notice that day.

nightmare69 wrote:

ScottDLS wrote:Nothing will "legally" prevent a student or faculty member from carrying either in the absence of 30.06 compliant notice...However the probability of expulsion or termination of employment certainly exists, with the exception of firearms in vehicles in the parking areas and streets.

Our staff and students were told "no firearms allowed on university property" during the start of the year meeting in August. They all received legal verbal notice that day.

At least presumably those students/staff that were present

ETA: The verbal (oral) notice was 30.06 compliant, as i stated in my hypothetical...for those that were present to hear it.

nightmare69 wrote:

ScottDLS wrote:Nothing will "legally" prevent a student or faculty member from carrying either in the absence of 30.06 compliant notice...However the probability of expulsion or termination of employment certainly exists, with the exception of firearms in vehicles in the parking areas and streets.

Our staff and students were told "no firearms allowed on university property" during the start of the year meeting in August. They all received legal verbal notice that day.

Sounds like another reason to skip any non-critical meetings. If the University had sign-in sheets, they would also be able to prove who was there. That's assuming of course that no one was able to take a bathroom break at any point during the meeting.

At least they didn't prohibit carry in vehicles (which are not University owned property).

ScottDLS wrote:

nightmare69 wrote:

ScottDLS wrote:Nothing will "legally" prevent a student or faculty member from carrying either in the absence of 30.06 compliant notice...However the probability of expulsion or termination of employment certainly exists, with the exception of firearms in vehicles in the parking areas and streets.

Our staff and students were told "no firearms allowed on university property" during the start of the year meeting in August. They all received legal verbal notice that day.

At least presumably those students/staff that were present

ETA: The verbal (oral) notice was 30.06 compliant, as i stated in my hypothetical...for those that were present to hear it.

Being a grad student, I'm not obligated to show up to any "meetings" like the undergrads are. I wonder if they actually gave those present kind of verbal notice... oh wells

On a side note, my university has language that states something along the lines of: University policy prohibits the possession of firearms... on the premises or any property controlled by the university... regardless if an individual has a CHL. Once you start walking around, you will notice gunbuster signs are posted on each building.

Soccerdad1995 wrote:

nightmare69 wrote:

ScottDLS wrote:Nothing will "legally" prevent a student or faculty member from carrying either in the absence of 30.06 compliant notice...However the probability of expulsion or termination of employment certainly exists, with the exception of firearms in vehicles in the parking areas and streets.

Our staff and students were told "no firearms allowed on university property" during the start of the year meeting in August. They all received legal verbal notice that day.

Sounds like another reason to skip any non-critical meetings. If the University had sign-in sheets, they would also be able to prove who was there. That's assuming of course that no one was able to take a bathroom break at any point during the meeting.

At least they didn't prohibit carry in vehicles (which are not University owned property).

They also have legal written notice in the student and staff handbook. Everyone has to sign saying they received and understand the rules and policy. I hope in time that will change.

ScottDLS wrote:I think you misinterpreted what he said. You can't OPEN carry on any college campus, but if they don't post 30.06 and you conceal and carry, what are you going to be charged with?

How does a campus the size of a small city "post 30.06"????

Ruark wrote:

ScottDLS wrote:I think you misinterpreted what he said. You can't OPEN carry on any college campus, but if they don't post 30.06 and you conceal and carry, what are you going to be charged with?

How does a campus the size of a small city "post 30.06"????

You post "conspicuously" all the parts of a property that you wish to make off limits. Lots and lots of signs in English and Spanish. You basically plaster the campus with them, all so you can bust visitors on a class C for property, or a class A for "a portion of the premises of a (college)".

ScottDLS wrote:

Ruark wrote:

ScottDLS wrote:I think you misinterpreted what he said. You can't OPEN carry on any college campus, but if they don't post 30.06 and you conceal and carry, what are you going to be charged with?

How does a campus the size of a small city "post 30.06"????

You post "conspicuously" all the parts of a property that you wish to make off limits. Lots and lots of signs in English and Spanish. You basically plaster the campus with them, all so you can bust visitors on a class C for property, or a class A for "a portion of the premises of a (college)".

That only applies to a public university: 46.035(a-3), where it would be Class A anywhere on a private university: 46.035(a-2) .

Has anyone visited any of the North Texas private colleges or universities which have posted signs? I normally play Tuba Christmas at TCU but missed that date this year and didn't attend. I understand that they have opted out and was curious about any signage that they might have posted and where.

SMU? Also, UNT has made most of the major venues off-limits, including the recital hall in the music building. Is there signage there?

I'm just curious if signs have been implemented anywhere.

casp625 wrote:

ScottDLS wrote:

Ruark wrote:

ScottDLS wrote:I think you misinterpreted what he said. You can't OPEN carry on any college campus, but if they don't post 30.06 and you conceal and carry, what are you going to be charged with?

How does a campus the size of a small city "post 30.06"????

You post "conspicuously" all the parts of a property that you wish to make off limits. Lots and lots of signs in English and Spanish. You basically plaster the campus with them, all so you can bust visitors on a class C for property, or a class A for "a portion of the premises of a (college)".

That only applies to a public university: 46.035(a-3), where it would be Class A anywhere on a private university: 46.035(a-2) .

Yes I see that now.