Kitty Genovese

[Redneck_Buddha]

I am dismayed at how many people proudly proclaim they would stand by and allow a repeat of this tragedy.

Who is doing that?

Just take note of the folks that proudly proclaim they carry only carry for the defense "me and mine", will not get involved and will only stand by and serve as a "good witness". These things have beef repeated many many times on this forum.

Ahhhhhhhh...gotcha, thanks! Guess I better take a side on that matter.

[The Annoyed Man]

No movie producer can get "the truth" 50 years after the fact, when the critical facts are are locked in the minds of any remaining witnesses. I too saw a documentary on her murder and it called into question the number of "witnesses." They interviewed people who lived in the surrounding apartments at the time and few were then willing to admit what they did or did not do. Most were trying to minimize what they heard and/or saw. It would take a rare person indeed to admit that they heard screams for help or watched the attack and did nothing. If I remember correctly, she was attacked by the same person twice, with some time, great or small, between the attacks. A call to the police could have given time for a response between the two. As for the women who claimed to have called the police, who knows. I find it much easier to believe that no call was made then to believe NYPD simply ignored it.

There may have not been as many as 38 people who saw or heard the attacks and did nothing, but I don't believe for a second that it was "only a couple." I'm with Andy, no Kitty Genovese in Texas!!!

Chas.

I would go so far as to say that very few movie producers making films about real events ever tell "the truth". Why? Because most of the time, the story is merely a vehicle for the producer to propagate his/her personal social/political/religious agenda. Movies are as much a part of building the narrative of the left as are any other form of media. Heck, even movies which actually DO tell the actual truth, very typically shortchange it for the simple reason that they're trying to fit big stories into a 2 - 3 hour time frame. "Lone Survivor[/i" comes to mind. Peter Berg did sincerely try to do the story justice, but he took liberties with Marcus Luttrell's book, and even in the book, Luttrell misremembered certain details, and then clarified those details in interviews post publication and post movie release. The changes did not substantially alter heroism in the story. In that case, nobody is trying to be dishonest about the story, but time has a way of bringing other details to the fore that weren't there in the original recounting. And in the case of Berg, he had to take liberties with the story just to get viewer deeply involved from the get go. The scene that comes to mind is the one right at the opening of the movie in which Luttrell supposedly goes into cardiac arrest. That didn't actually happen. But, it was an effective "fib" to get the viewer deeply involved right off the bat.

In this case, the liberties Berg took with the movie's storyline were tools to try and convey the seriousness of the situation.......a story which is almost unbelievable in the levels of heroism those men displayed. In the Kitty Genovese movie, the producer begins with a well trod meme of the uncaring New Yorker and a feckless police dept. Anyone who has ever lived in NYC (I have) knows that is only partially true, and there are many examples of the exact opposite. My own experience of New Yorkers, including the cops, was of a tough and acerbic people, who are capable of extreme generosity under that rough exterior.

[Jusme]

I am dismayed at how many people proudly proclaim they would stand by and allow a repeat of this tragedy.

Who is doing that?

Just take note of the folks that proudly proclaim they carry only carry for the defense "me and mine", will not get involved and will only stand by and serve as a "good witness". These things have beef repeated many many times on this forum.

Mojo84, I think you may be misconstruing some of the posts regarding "me and mine" I doubt seriously, that anyone on this forum would stand idly by while someone was brutally attacked, and take no action. Even if that action is to dial 9-1-1, get descriptions, and LP info, etc. I think that many of us would however refuse to put our lives on the the line, to prevent property crimes, especially if it is someone else's property. You are also underestimating the value of being a good witness. As a former LEO, I can attest to how frustrating it is, to arrive at the scene of a crime, and people are either uncooperative about providing information, or they were not SA enough to get good descriptions, of vehicle, suspects etc.

I can't tell people how to react to any given situation, that is for them to decide, but I don't think you can insinuate, that someone is so uncaring and unfeeling, because they may say they would, or wouldn't do something in a hypothetical situation. That's painting them with a pretty broad brush. JMHO

[mojo84]

I am dismayed at how many people proudly proclaim they would stand by and allow a repeat of this tragedy.

Who is doing that?

Just take note of the folks that proudly proclaim they carry only carry for the defense "me and mine", will not get involved and will only stand by and serve as a "good witness". These things have beef repeated many many times on this forum.

Mojo84, I think you may be misconstruing some of the posts regarding "me and mine" I doubt seriously, that anyone on this forum would stand idly by while someone was brutally attacked, and take no action. Even if that action is to dial 9-1-1, get descriptions, and LP info, etc. I think that many of us would however refuse to put our lives on the the line, to prevent property crimes, especially if it is someone else's property. You are also underestimating the value of being a good witness. As a former LEO, I can attest to how frustrating it is, to arrive at the scene of a crime, and people are either uncooperative about providing information, or they were not SA enough to get good descriptions, of vehicle, suspects etc.

I can't tell people how to react to any given situation, that is for them to decide, but I don't think you can insinuate, that someone is so uncaring and unfeeling, because they may say they would, or wouldn't do something in a hypothetical situation. That's painting them with a pretty broad brush. JMHO

I am not "insinuating" or "underestimating" anything. You haven't been here long enough. People have said that very thing many times starting long before your arrival here.

I realize a year on here is great but there have been many many discussions on this prior to your arrival. People have repeatedly said they wouldn't risk themselves for another, they won't take a chance on potential legal backlash, it's none of their business, if others don't take steps to get a CHL and protect themselves then they don't deserve help, not my problem, I'll stand by ready to protect myself and just be a good witness etc. These discussion were not just about property crimes.

[Jusme]

I am dismayed at how many people proudly proclaim they would stand by and allow a repeat of this tragedy.

Who is doing that?

Just take note of the folks that proudly proclaim they carry only carry for the defense "me and mine", will not get involved and will only stand by and serve as a "good witness". These things have beef repeated many many times on this forum.

Mojo84, I think you may be misconstruing some of the posts regarding "me and mine" I doubt seriously, that anyone on this forum would stand idly by while someone was brutally attacked, and take no action. Even if that action is to dial 9-1-1, get descriptions, and LP info, etc. I think that many of us would however refuse to put our lives on the the line, to prevent property crimes, especially if it is someone else's property. You are also underestimating the value of being a good witness. As a former LEO, I can attest to how frustrating it is, to arrive at the scene of a crime, and people are either uncooperative about providing information, or they were not SA enough to get good descriptions, of vehicle, suspects etc.

I can't tell people how to react to any given situation, that is for them to decide, but I don't think you can insinuate, that someone is so uncaring and unfeeling, because they may say they would, or wouldn't do something in a hypothetical situation. That's painting them with a pretty broad brush. JMHO

I am not "insinuating" anything. You haven't been here long enough. People have said that very thing many times starting long before your arrival here.

I realize a year on here is great but there have been many many discussions on this prior to your arrival. People have repeatedly said they wouldn't risk themselves for another, they won't take a chance on potential legal backlash, it's none of their business, if others don't take steps to get a CHL and protect themselves then they don't deserve help, not my problem, I'll stand by ready to protect myself and just be a good witness etc.

I'm not trying to start an argument, and maybe my post wasn't as clear as it should be. All I'm saying is that until someone is put into that position, they really can't know how they will react. Many times people who thought they would "never get involved" turn out to be the hero, and those who believed that they would be the one to "save the day" (including LEO) either froze, or fled. As a former LEO, I trained and practiced for multiple scenarios, listened to other LEO recount their actions in various situations, to gain some perspective, and constantly played the "what if" game during interactions with the public, to try to prepare myself, to react accordingly. Fortunately, I was never put into a position where I had to use deadly force, and in the situations, in which I was involved, where less than deadly force was required, I feel I performed adequately. With that being said, since I wasn't put into that position, I can only speculate as to what my reaction would be. The same goes for anyone else, whether they have had extra training, or not, it is all speculation. I don't want to tell anyone how they should react, or criticize their speculation on how they think they will react, to any given situation. Everyone will have to decide for themselves, what risks they feel they are willing to take, and then if they are so inclined, train for the scenarios they feel they may encounter.
Personally, my position is that I will only intervene, if it involved physical attacks on people, I will "probably" not intervene if it involves property crime. Again, I am only speculating, and basing my thoughts on many factors. If it requires me to leave my loved ones, in a dangerous position to get involved, that will take precedence, over assisting someone I don't know. I know that my time on the forum, is shorter than others, but I have read several archived threads on the topic, and have seen many that I disagreed with, but as I said, the majority of those were posted by people basing their thoughts only on speculation rather than actual situations.

[mojo84]

Jusme, I agree with what you say about not knowing how one will react until in a situation. I have been in the situation a couple of times and know how I responded. I do not expect everyone to do the same. I believe you are conflating the issues. Someone that has predetermined they will not help will most likely not get involved. Those that think they will but not when actual in the situation is different. There will always be those that will run to help and those that will run away. That's human nature.

My problem is with people that proudly proclaim beforehand they have no intention of rendering aid and helping. You would just have to see the many discussions that we've had on this to understand what I am talking about.

At one time, I too had a hard time believing many people would be so willing to come to the aid of others. You also must recognize I never made any all inclusive statement that no one on here would come to the aid. My comment was regarding those that have openly and proudly proclaimed they would not. There are many on here that have chosen to put themselves in harm's way for the protection of others.

[The Annoyed Man]

Jusme, I agree with what you say about not knowing how one will react until in a situation. I have been in the situation a couple of times and know how I responded. I do not expect everyone to do the same. I believe you are conflating the issues. Someone that has predetermined they will not help will most likely not get involved. Those that think they will but not when actual in the situation is different. There will always be those that will run to help and those that will run away. That's human nature.

My problem is with people that proudly proclaim beforehand they have no intention of rendering aid and helping. You would just have to see the many discussions that we've had on this to understand what I am talking about.

At one time, I too had a hard time believing many people would be so willing to come to the aid of others. You also must recognize I never made any all inclusive statement that no one on here would come to the aid. My comment was regarding those that have openly and proudly proclaimed they would not. There are many on here that have chosen to put themselves in harm's way for the protection of others.

"Never" is a pretty big word. I have made those comments myself, that I carry to protect me and mine, but also I don't think I could stand idly by if someone was about to be killed. But that leaves a lot of room in between those two statements, and each case is its own individual story. My decision would have to be based on how much I knew about the situation.

[ninjabread]

I am dismayed at how many people proudly proclaim they would stand by and allow a repeat of this tragedy.

Who is doing that?

http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic. ... 6&start=45

I don't see anybody saying they would refuse to call 911.

[mojo84]

I am dismayed at how many people proudly proclaim they would stand by and allow a repeat of this tragedy.

Who is doing that?

http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic. ... 6&start=45

I don't see anybody saying they would refuse to call 911.

You are late. Not going to play.

http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic. ... od+witness

[ninjabread]

You want to drag the thread off topic. Not going to play.

http://www.nytimes.com/1964/03/27/37-wh ... .html?_r=0

[mojo84]

You want to drag the thread off topic. Not going to play.

http://www.nytimes.com/1964/03/27/37-wh ... .html?_r=0

Not off topic at all. Just illustrating this isn't the first such thread. The same kind of stuff was discussed in that thread including Kitty Genovese's murder. There was the same boasting of "me and mine only" and not going to get involved.

There have been many similar threads. If people don't want to help someone, that's fine. I just think lowly of those that make the blanket statement and then act talk like those that do help are playing cop.

It would do you well to spend some time reading oldervtjreads before trying to school someone on here.

[Soccerdad1995]

Mojo -

I looked through the threads you linked, and I have participated in a number of other threads here on this same topic. I have not seen anyone say that they would refuse to call 911 and would just leave and go about their business. Maybe there is some other post to that effect from "before my time". If there is, then I would have to say that I completely disagree with that position.

I think there is a lot of room to debate how and when a LTC holder (or anyone else) should get involved. I have stated my general position a number of times which is that I am not going to do the job of LE and I do not expect them to do my job either. That means I will generally not put myself in harms way to stop a crime. But it does not mean that I would ever just walk away and not even bother to call 911.

And in some cases, I might not be able to stick to my plan and I might in fact intervene directly, especially if we are talking about an assault on someone who is clearly vulnerable. But I will make sure that I absolutely understand all relevant facts, and will use the right level of intervention. My firearm would only be used if I was unable to stop the attack through other means (announce presence, verbal commands, etc).

This is a complex issue. And it does not help to misconstrue the position that some of the people on this forum are taking. "Me and mine" does not mean ignore and walk away, any more than "get involved" means coming in with guns blazing before understanding the situation. I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of the folks here fall somewhere between the extremes on this.

[K.Mooneyham]

"Not getting involved" covers a rather broad area. As the Annoyed Man spoke of, intervening to stop a woman being brutally attacked is a lot different than stopping a property crime. I've stated that my LTC is for protecting me and mine. However, that was with a Joe Horn situation in mind, not some lady being beaten right in front of me. It's all situational, and yes, I'm still more afraid of a legal system that doesn't like armed citizens than of the immediate consequences to my person. NOTHING frightens me more than an overzealous, politically motivated DA backed by armed officers of the law, and the thought of being locked up with violent criminals who enjoy hurting others. Some of you may be able to survive being held for months in prison while awaiting trial, but I seriously doubt my ability to do so. If my honesty makes others think less of me, well so be it. I'm just a mechanic, not a combat veteran. I'm glad there are those with the skills and personal convictions to make a difference, and I sincerely mean that.