TexasCHLforum.com

First, welcome to the forum!

One thing you might consider doing is a) getting recommendations here for a *good* LTC instructor in the DFW area, and b) asking that instructor if you could audit their class to get a *good* class on the Texas laws on use of force, deescalation, etc. I'm be awfully surprised if they would react with anything but open arms to have someone who's willing to devote the time to get the *right* info, even if it means sitting through a class a second time.

It shouldn't cost you anything but a few hours of your time. I know Charles Cotton's classes here in Houston are both highly educational, *and* entertaining & fun! Not anything like taking bad medicine :D

RHenriksen wrote:First, welcome to the forum!

One thing you might consider doing is a) getting recommendations here for a *good* LTC instructor in the DFW area, and b) asking that instructor if you could audit their class to get a *good* class on the Texas laws on use of force, deescalation, etc. I'm be awfully surprised if they would react with anything but open arms to have someone who's willing to devote the time to get the *right* info, even if it means sitting through a class a second time.

It shouldn't cost you anything but a few hours of your time. I know Charles Cotton's classes here in Houston are both highly educational, *and* entertaining & fun! Not anything like taking bad medicine :D

+1 for Charles Cotton. I live near Austin. I took my father and youngest brother to Friendswood (160 miles) so that they could take Charles' LTC class. I've set through three different LTC classes. Charles has the best instruction on the law, and he runs a safe range. On a scale of 1 to 10, he scores 20.

I think you will find this forum to be very informative and with very little negative judgement concerning questions you may have. I had a good instructor but this forum has filled in the gaps and clarified a few areas for me.

So, warning shots have been covered. The part about the fake training pistol, I think that you are severely overreacting on that one.

My entire purpose behind having a plastic training blue gun is to be able to do stuff with it that I would not dream of doing with a real handgun, even if unloaded, and to be able to demonstrate things like weapon retention and even showing how easily I can take your weapon away from you or out of your open-top holster before you can respond. Sometimes that involves pointing it at a person. That is what those are for. Short of sticking the thing into body orifices, there isn’t anything that someone could do with a plastic training pistol that would cause me even the slightest bit of concern.

Your statement of “treating anything that resembles a gun like it is a gun” works fine if we are talking about airsoft, B.B. guns, and even Nerf guns and staple guns, but a plastic training pistol cannot possibly fire any projectile, and so you are overreacting.

Your statement of “treating anything that resembles a gun like it is a gun” works fine if we are talking about airsoft, B.B. guns, and even Nerf guns and staple guns, but a plastic training pistol cannot possibly fire any projectile, and so you are overreacting.

Without knowing the full context of why the training gun was repeatedly aimed at students and "play-fired", I have to disagree with you here. I fully understand the use of "blue" guns in training, and agree that they are useful for certain illustrations that cannot be done safely with a functioning firearm. Even so, the incident appears to have been in the classroom portion of the LTC class and I don't see a need to point even "blue" guns at students for any of the content of the class. Also, this clearly detracted from the class rather than adding to the content. Therefore, it was a bad thing for the instructor to do, and the instructor should perhaps look for another way of illustrating whatever point he/she was trying to make.

As far as the instructor going over all of the answers before giving the test... I don't know how other instructors do this, but the instructor I took the course from didn't specifically go over the test question by question... but he used the test as a guide to make sure that he had covered each topic that was on the test. Also at the end of the course for the topics that were covered lightly he did give us a little heads up over the answers. He also made certain to cover questions specifically if he felt that the questions or answers were specially confusing.

At the time, I thought that it was strange that he was basically giving us some of the answers for the test. But some of the questions were in "legalese" and some of us common folk don't handle the double and triple negatives very well. I think that a few tricky questions on the test were not going to be enough to cause him to disqualify a student who seemed otherwise intelligent enough to understand the justifications for the use of deadly force and other concepts. If a student seems to be misunderstanding the material in such a way as to be dangerous, then I think that a good instructor likely can tell before the test is given most of the time. After all, Texas is a "shall issue" state.

Middle Age Russ wrote:

Your statement of “treating anything that resembles a gun like it is a gun” works fine if we are talking about airsoft, B.B. guns, and even Nerf guns and staple guns, but a plastic training pistol cannot possibly fire any projectile, and so you are overreacting.

Without knowing the full context of why the training gun was repeatedly aimed at students and "play-fired", I have to disagree with you here. I fully understand the use of "blue" guns in training, and agree that they are useful for certain illustrations that cannot be done safely with a functioning firearm. Even so, the incident appears to have been in the classroom portion of the LTC class and I don't see a need to point even "blue" guns at students for any of the content of the class. Also, this clearly detracted from the class rather than adding to the content. Therefore, it was a bad thing for the instructor to do, and the instructor should perhaps look for another way of illustrating whatever point he/she was trying to make.

It's been a while since I took the class, but my instructor did not feel the need to use a training gun to illustrate any teaching points in the classroom portion. I could understand using such a tool if he wanted to explain the basics of proper grip or which way to point the weapon once you get to the range, but that was not needed in my class.

I am fine with using such an aid if there is a need for it. I am also fine with pointing a training gun at someone, but again, only if there is a need for it. I don't know of anything in the LTC curriculum that constitutes such a need.

Soccerdad1995 wrote:

Middle Age Russ wrote:

Your statement of “treating anything that resembles a gun like it is a gun” works fine if we are talking about airsoft, B.B. guns, and even Nerf guns and staple guns, but a plastic training pistol cannot possibly fire any projectile, and so you are overreacting.

Without knowing the full context of why the training gun was repeatedly aimed at students and "play-fired", I have to disagree with you here. I fully understand the use of "blue" guns in training, and agree that they are useful for certain illustrations that cannot be done safely with a functioning firearm. Even so, the incident appears to have been in the classroom portion of the LTC class and I don't see a need to point even "blue" guns at students for any of the content of the class. Also, this clearly detracted from the class rather than adding to the content. Therefore, it was a bad thing for the instructor to do, and the instructor should perhaps look for another way of illustrating whatever point he/she was trying to make.

It's been a while since I took the class, but my instructor did not feel the need to use a training gun to illustrate any teaching points in the classroom portion. I could understand using such a tool if he wanted to explain the basics of proper grip or which way to point the weapon once you get to the range, but that was not needed in my class.

I am fine with using such an aid if there is a need for it. I am also fine with pointing a training gun at someone, but again, only if there is a need for it. I don't know of anything in the LTC curriculum that constitutes such a need.

I understand what everyone is saying... and I am not a LTC instructor, and if I were, I would not be doing anything like this. But here is the big picture, this guy is sitting in a class where he is learning the ins and the outs of carrying a handgun that he may have to use to kill another human being... and having a plastic training pistol pointed at him and having an instructor say "Bang bang" makes him feel "uncomfortable". If a plastic pistol is outside of this guy's comfort zone, then my concern about that either equals or outweighs what the instructor was doing. Again, big picture.

Sure, this instructor's overall behavior is goofy at best and needs to be addressed, but there is more going on here than just him.

AJSully421 wrote:So, warning shots have been covered. The part about the fake training pistol, I think that you are severely overreacting on that one.

My entire purpose behind having a plastic training blue gun is to be able to do stuff with it that I would not dream of doing with a real handgun, even if unloaded, and to be able to demonstrate things like weapon retention and even showing how easily I can take your weapon away from you or out of your open-top holster before you can respond. Sometimes that involves pointing it at a person. That is what those are for. Short of sticking the thing into body orifices, there isn’t anything that someone could do with a plastic training pistol that would cause me even the slightest bit of concern.

Your statement of “treating anything that resembles a gun like it is a gun” works fine if we are talking about airsoft, B.B. guns, and even Nerf guns and staple guns, but a plastic training pistol cannot possibly fire any projectile, and so you are overreacting.

Well said!

Thanks for the input everyone. I know I wasn’t going to get shot with the training gun, just not a fan of having anything that resembles a firearm pointed at my face.

Zook wrote:Thanks for the input everyone. I know I wasn’t going to get shot with the training gun, just not a fan of having anything that resembles a firearm pointed at my face.

I've taken a pistol class, and a CHL from Karl Rehn and one of his instructors. A CHL in CO, and another here in TX again....I can honestly say, I've never had anything real, toy, plastic or rubber pointed at me.

Pointing a blue gun at someone outside of a defined training drill is at the least bad muscle memory training. In my CHL class, I got swept many times with the instructor's real guns. I saw him clear the gun each time and I didn't figure I could cure him of his insanity, so I didn't say anything. I wish I had.

He was former LEO and had done a lot of good service. I guess that's why I let it go. As far as I know, he doesn't teach any more. I think the word got out.

Curiously, several times he stated that if anyone pointed a muzzle at him he would return fire.

Sorry you had a bad experience training.

There are good and bad instructors in any sort of training/education. I've had both.

I would encourage you to read some of the class/instructor reviews on this website and continue training with other instructors. There are a ton of good ones in Texas.

treadlightly wrote:Pointing a blue gun at someone outside of a defined training drill is at the least bad muscle memory training. In my CHL class, I got swept many times with the instructor's real guns. I saw him clear the gun each time and I didn't figure I could cure him of his insanity, so I didn't say anything. I wish I had.

He was former LEO and had done a lot of good service. I guess that's why I let it go. As far as I know, he doesn't teach any more. I think the word got out.

Curiously, several times he stated that if anyone pointed a muzzle at him he would return fire.

Let's hope he never unholsters his weapon while standing in front of a mirror...