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frankie_the_yankee wrote:Get a Para LDA. Problem solved.

Bought one for my daughter, but that wouldn't change things.

First, the LDA only brings a longer trigger stroke to the table, in all other respects it is just like my P-13 in terms of safety features.

Second, it is the idea that the muzzle is pointed a certain direction that upsets her, not that the gun is not safe.

If I put it in the center console she probably wouldn't say anything about it although that is probably less safe than in my holster. If my daughter has her pistol in her purse, then more than likely the muzzle is pointing at someone at one time or another....but I don't think my wife has thought of that yet.

PhilR. wrote:

flintknapper wrote:
My point is....I am not worried in the least about anyones mode of carry with any modern (and properly functioning) firearm. They are really quite safe until someone puts their hand on one (then it depends on the person).

Hey - you're preaching to the choir, and I'm not worried about safety of modern firearms (yours included) either, so your point was discernable in your original post.

Be that as it may, your logic and knowledge, while voluminous and admirable, still don't matter, and I still maintain that it's not worth the hassle. And too, if you're so handicapped that you absolutely refuse to change your carry method in order not to give in to her "misguided fears", then why put up this post in the first place? Either the subject is a cause of strife and you should do something to relieve that strife, or it's a non-issue, in which case we are just wasting time....

PhilR.

Phil,

Just curious what others thoughts are on the subject.

I am ever the student...and I am trying to understand her position on this even though I consider it irrational. I know that sounds like I have a closed mind to the subject...but I do not.

For now...I consider it a "non-issue" and I don't intend to change my mode of carry because my wife fails to recognize that it is not dangerous.

I will continue to gently and lovingly reason with her about it, but you'd think she would have figured it out after 11 years of my carrying that way and no issues.

Beats me.

I don't really like the idea of horizontal shoulder holsters either. Why is switching to a vertical a big deal?

ETA: I've been married for ten years. That's not as long as many here, but long enough to know that two people don't always agree. I usually ask myself: "Is this worth standing my ground over?" If it is, I'll stick to my guns (pardon the pun ). If it's not, I'll give. I've found that it works.

Venus Pax wrote:I don't really like the idea of horizontal shoulder holsters either. Why is switching to a vertical a big deal?

ETA: I've been married for ten years. That's not as long as many here, but long enough to know that two people don't always agree. I usually ask myself: "Is this worth standing my ground over?" If it is, I'll stick to my guns (pardon the pun ). If it's not, I'll give. I've found that it works.

Fair question.

First, I would be severely limited in the number of quality holsters I would be able to look at. There is a plethora of cheap nylon vertical holsters available, but they all appear to be a total waste of money.

Here are few I would be able to choose from (including one of the cheap ones).

http://www.ccwsupply.biz/RossM43AShould ... PHOTO1.gif

http://www.ccwsupply.biz/GalcoVerticalS ... PHOTO1.gif

http://www.ccwsupply.biz/RossM43Vertica ... PHOTO1.gif

http://www.copsplus.com/products/large/um-7501-1.jpg

Basically, vertical shoulder holsters require a much different draw stroke than a horizontal one. If you want to see the much touted "Slow and awkward draw" this is the group they are talking about.

Most vertical rigs require an upward movement to withdraw the weapon, this is opposite of where I want to go with my draw stroke, it also means wearing a "tie down" which I do not like. With a horizontal rig...you simply snap the weapon downward (and out) for a very fast and safe presentation. Even those that allow you to rotate the weapon adds time to the draw and still covers you on weak hand draws.

Most vertical rigs have no thumb-break that goes between the hammer and firing pin (or behind it on LDA's) which adds yet another level of safety. Instead they have a retaining strap that must be manipulated by the index finger. There are few that have a spring steel retainer that you "pull through" (not the best retention device).

Weak hand draw with a horizontal rig is easily accomplished and does not "cover" you in the process. Vertical rigs (most) would be difficult to do this from.

Vertical rigs require that get your thumb between your body and the weapon in order to get a good grip (easily muffed), they also require you to bend the wrist/hand downward in order to grip the weapon. This serves to shorten the arm causing me to reach further across my body...aggravating an already sore shoulder and presents ANY shooter with an initially "weak" grip.

I looked at both versions (Horizontal and Vertical) before choosing the one I did many years ago. Horizontal looked like the clear winner to me then as now.

Also, If we are to be intellectually honest about this...."Horizontal" carry of any fashion should be a concern. I can see this taking in "purse carry", or even having a weapon laying on the seat of a car.. etc.

A little off subject....but those who carry in a "belly band" are almost always covering themselves just as soon as they sit down. Same with most IWB's.

Just something to think about.

Maybe you could modify your car seat back to make it bullet proof?

As I remember, a 45 acp won't penetrate a relatively low number of phone books. There are sources of free phone books. Test in yard to see how many needed to stop fired round and demonstrate for your wife. Then insert these in seat back behind you. If this will work for your vehicle would be cheaper than a steel plate (which might ricochet).

Jeremae wrote:Maybe you could modify your car seat back to make it bullet proof?

As I remember, a 45 acp won't penetrate a relatively low number of phone books. There are sources of free phone books. Test in yard to see how many needed to stop fired round and demonstrate for your wife. Then insert these in seat back behind you. If this will work for your vehicle would be cheaper than a steel plate (which might ricochet).

I appreciate the suggestion, but no.

If anything gets modified....its going to be my dear wifes point of view on this.

Thank you for you thoughts though.

Flint.

Not that it's necessarily justified but I feel the same way your wife does, at least in my own personal situation.

The idea of a loaded gun pointing at somebody I love just does not sit well with me, no matter how infinitesimally small the likelihood of it going off it is.

Not to say you're wrong. That's just how I personally feel.

I think you'd win more by giving in on this one. There are plenty of alternative and safe methods that would still allow you to carry in the car and give your wife peace of mind at the same time.

JasonH wrote:Not that it's necessarily justified but I feel the same way your wife does, at least in my own personal situation.

The idea of a loaded gun pointing at somebody I love just does not sit well with me, no matter how infinitesimally small the likelihood of it going off it is.

Not to say you're wrong. That's just how I personally feel.

Thank you for your response.

Part of the reason I posted this was to see how many others had similar feelings (regardless of whether I agree with them or not).

I suppose there will always be something disconcerting about having a firearm pointed toward you (for some people).

Another motive of mine was to raise awareness that "Horizontal" carry exists outside of shoulder carry, but no one has responded to that yet.

I have heard no objections to "purse carry", handgun on a car seat, handgun in a bedside table, etc... all of these are horizontal positions and equally condemnable if we are to be consistent right?

Then we go on to "covering" yourself (or others) in general. Those with belly bands or smart carry rigs are probably covering themselves when they sit down. Most people not possessing "buns of steel" are probably covering themselves if they carry IWB and sit down (or maybe even not).
I hear no objection to this either.

Personally, I think way too much is made of the "muzzle always in a safe direction" thing (unless the firearm is in hand). Of course, where possible/practical it is desirable to not cover anything EVER, but that just isn't "real life" in the CHL world.

Just my thoughts.

[quote="MrsFosforos"]I think you'd win more by giving in on this one. There are plenty of alternative and safe methods that would still allow you to carry in the car and give your wife peace of mind at the same time.[/quote]


Agreed,

Funny thing is, she hasn't the least concern once we exit the vehicle.

If the pistol is safe, and the mode of carry acceptable under other conditions, then why not in the car?

Sorry, but IMO this line of thinking is intellectually dishonest, inconsistent, illogical, and ........nevermind.

Like I said before, we don't fight about it....but I'll be darned if I'll ever understand it.

Flintknapper,

Sounds to me like a difference of styles is at the root of the problem. You aren't arguing your point from a "feeling" perspective, but rather from a "reasoning" perspective. You will never win a "feelings" argument with "reasoning" arguments and vice versa.

Try dealing with her feelings and validating her feelings (her feelings are valid, even if they aren't logically correct, after all). After that, you may be able to get her to come around to a more "reasoning" viewpoint on it and you get your carry method and she gets her feelings respected.

No, I'm not a shrink, but I've had dealings with them, and discovered that feelings and reason don't have much to do with one another, even inside the same person...

flintknapper wrote:
Personally, I think way too much is made of the "muzzle always in a safe direction" thing (unless the firearm is in hand). Of course, where possible/practical it is desirable to not cover anything EVER, but that just isn't "real life" in the CHL world.

Just my thoughts.

You make a valid point, I think though that a good holster is what makes a difference. When handling any gun unsheathed muzzzle awareness should always be observed. However a holstered gun with no booger finger near it is pretty darned safe. I would think that muzzle awareness is important whenever you move your hands to the gun.

flintknapper wrote:
Personally, I think way too much is made of the "muzzle always in a safe direction" thing (unless the firearm is in hand). Of course, where possible/practical it is desirable to not cover anything EVER, but that just isn't "real life" in the CHL world.Just my thoughts.

Liberty wrote: You make a valid point, I think though that a good holster is what makes a difference. When handling any gun unsheathed muzzle awareness should always be observed. However a holstered gun with no booger finger near it is pretty darned safe. I would think that muzzle awareness is important whenever you move your hands to the gun.

Exactly! In fact... muzzle awareness is CRITICAL once the weapon has been removed from the holster.

It is also good practice (where possible/practical) to keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction whether the gun is loaded or not. Anyone that has been around me will note that I do this when handling a weapon.

I don't get the vapors over a holstered (or otherwise properly secured) weapon though.

It might be revealing.....if everyone would take an honest look at their mode of carry and determine if they are covering themselves or others (at any time). The smart money says they are.

That is why I think we have gone just a tad too far when we seek to apply the mantra "Never point your weapon at anything you don't wish to destroy" to a properly secured weapon. Its darn near impossible to do while carrying, and not a reason for everyone to get the "willies" IMO.

I carry in my purse frequently and my gun is NOT horizontal. I have it in a pocket holster which holds it upright making it easy to access.

Flint...

Personally, I agree with you on this issue and feel that your choice of carry method is inherantly safe.

My suggestion was based upon the fact that your wife is approaching this from an emotional standpoint that will not respond to logical argument. When I encounter that with my wife, I have to either accept we are gonna disagree (and I will be reminded of this on a regular basis) or come up with some kind of change that assures her fears. The phone book bullet proofing was one of several ideas that came to mind and it was cheap and easy depending on the car seat involved.

I can think of dozens of other ways to "Make the seat behind you" safer depending on how much money and effort you would like to invest.

Advise on dealing with SWMBO when she disagrees, "Don't look at me, I have NO idea." I knew NOTHING about women before I got married and after more than 20 years know even less now.