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I’ve read on this forum that a suspect should always follow the LEOs instructions. This will assure the suspect safety and prevent harm. If these parents had opened the door as instructed and allowed a wellness check, a search warrant would not have been necessary to obtain a search warrant and the door breached after further refusal to open the door. It is not as if the situation was approached as a no knock warrant.

Soccerdad1995 wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:41 pmOn the second question, I would say that parents are the ones tasked with safeguarding the physical and spiritual well being of the child. But, as a Locke disciple, I'd also say that governments are formed among men in order to safeguard the rights of the people. Children have the right to life, so it is a proper function of government, in my opinion, to step in if anyone, including a child's parents, threatens the life of a child. So there is a line where government should rightly intervene to protect children from negligent or abusive parents.

That said, in this case, it appears that government agents went way, way, past that line.

I agree that the children have a right to life and the government has a moral authority to step in to protect a child's life. I just am not sure the government did go over the line in this case. The parent's called the doctor and told him the child had a 105 degree fever. At the child's age (two years), any temperature over 102 is considered life threatening. The doctor said to take the child to the emergency room then for treatment. The parents did not do so. The doctor then notified the Arizona equivalent of CPS who notified the police. The police came by and asked once to see the child to verify his health and were denied entry by the parents. They then returned with a search warrant to get the child.

A fever of 105 is dangerous to an adult. I concede the adult can make their own decision on danger though. A child cannot and parents have an obligation to care for children. The parents were concerned enough about the fever to call a doctor but not concerned enough to take the action the doctor recommended. Something in this makes no sense to me. The excuse reported is that the fever broke, but I find it hard to believe the fever broke between the time of the phone call being made and the time the parents should have been in the car OTW to the ER (maybe five minutes or so?)

I think we are not getting a full story on this and how or why it happened. Given the facts as reported, I cannot say the officers were wrong in their actions. I cannot say the parents were wrong yet wither. I do think we need some more details, such as why the parents called the doctor and what else he recommended. Did he say get to the ER immediately or did he say try "this" and if it doesn't work go to the ER?

One quick question for all of you who are parents. If your child had a fever of 105 and the doctor said to take him to an ER because it is that dangerous, how many of you would not have taken him? From what is reproed, the parents did not meet the normal standards of care for the child, which raises a lot of questions in my mind.

There are several points here that really worry me about these parents. They have NOT immunized their kids. I know many believe that is not necessary but it is just a sign that these people are strange. Next, they don't use a medical doctor for their kids but use a Naturopathic physician and even that doctor was worried about the kid enough to tell them that they needed to go to the ER (to that doctors credit). The police had legal court orders to check on the kid and the parents refused to open the door. Did the cops use too much force, I don't know but the parents left them no alternative. The Naturopathic doc thought the kid might have meningitis which easily could have killed a 2 year old (or even you and me).
These are the type of parents that end up refusing cancer treatments for their kids too. In some cases the nanny state needs to intervene, by force if necessary for the child's safety. Parents do not have the legal right to let their kids die.

People seem to be overlooking where the mother said the child temperature came down shortly after going to the doctor and she called the doctor to let her know.

But after leaving the doctor’s office, the boy showed signs of improvement. He was laughing and playing with his siblings, and his temperature moved closer to normal. Around 6:30 pm, the mother called the doctor to let her know the toddler no longer had a fever and she would not be taking him to the emergency room.

Interesting how some condone taking a child away from a parent without due process but get all bent out of shape if authorities take some crazy person's guns away from them when they'd been notified they are a dgnger to themselves or others.

mojo84 wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:53 pm People seem to be overlooking where the mother said the child temperature came down shortly after going to the doctor and she called the doctor to let her know.

This one wasn't in the stories I read and it does make a difference. It is part of why I said there must be more to the story.

srothstein wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:26 pm

mojo84 wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:53 pm People seem to be overlooking where the mother said the child temperature came down shortly after going to the doctor and she called the doctor to let her know.

This one wasn't in the stories I read and it does make a difference. It is part of why I said there must be more to the story.

From the first link in the OP...

After they left the doctor's office, the child was laughing and playing with his siblings. The mother took the child’s temperature again. It was near normal.

Shortly after 6:30 p.m., the mother called the doctor and told her that her toddler no longer had a fever so she wasn’t taking him to the emergency room.

Here's another quote from the article at the first link.

In 2016, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that removing a child without court approval violates parents' constitutional rights.

You get your day in court for most crimes, advocates said, why wouldn’t the same apply when removing a child because of accusations of neglect or abuse?

It makes a point. Just think how many estranged spouses could just call in and make a false complaint about how the other parent is subjecting a child to neglect and deplorable conditions. The child can be taken away without due process with just a judge signing off. It seems to be ok with children but heaven forbid it happen with someone's guns. What's the difference?

Socialism aka “government is in control of or involved in your life conception to grave” is so deeply imbedded in our country most people don’t even recognize the extent of it.

Socialism is the antithesis of liberty and freedom.

“But...but...it’s for the children!”

my son use to spike a high temp almost every time he got sick when he was little. I learned pretty quickly, with the help of my very patient nurse how to deal with it, without having to go to the ER, and with no CPS or police calls.
These days Doctors seem to thing they know people's kids better than the parents, and worse, they have become the law. Just do a google search on medical kidnapping....this world is scary.....

Once the Mom took the child to a Doctor she obligated him to call CPS when she did not follow his instructions. The Doctor had no way of knowing if the Mom lied to him about the child’s temp. to avoid additional costs. However, you can bet your life the Mom and Dad would have sued the Doctor for malpractice if the child had incurred injury or died. The Doctor only followed up responsibly as did CPS did when the parents refused to open the door and allow a simple wellness check.

OK...
y'all are not reading the article the way I'm reading the article.
1. mom decides not to go to hospital
2. dr calls CPS
3. CPS CALLS mom...
4. mom doesn't answer .... how many of you don't answer an unknown number, I know I don't most of the time. She didn't know CPS would call her, did she? They were NOT at her door!
5. CPS called the police
6. Police, with CPS kick in the door....after the parents try to deal with everything over the phone at that time....which apparently would have been fine earlier???
7.....CPS has trained people to be afraid to open the door to them. Did you read the number for AZ? they have removed over 4600!!! kids in 6 months! that's crazy! they are out of control

It sounds like the toddler was fine, so the only thing AZ DCS accomplished is to to make some parents less likely to take their sick child to a doctor.

Pawpaw wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:16 pm

srothstein wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:26 pm

mojo84 wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:53 pm People seem to be overlooking where the mother said the child temperature came down shortly after going to the doctor and she called the doctor to let her know.

This one wasn't in the stories I read and it does make a difference. It is part of why I said there must be more to the story.

From the first link in the OP...

After they left the doctor's office, the child was laughing and playing with his siblings. The mother took the child’s temperature again. It was near normal.

Shortly after 6:30 p.m., the mother called the doctor and told her that her toddler no longer had a fever so she wasn’t taking him to the emergency room.

I had not read the links because I had seen other news articles and had some knowledge of the incident.

Grumpy1993 wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:49 pm It sounds like the toddler was fine, so the only thing AZ DCS accomplished is to to make some parents less likely to take their sick child to a doctor.

exactly!