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Liberty wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:47 am

bblhd672 wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:07 pm

PSD military personnel "require weapons with greater lethality than pistols that are more concealable than rifles," the ACC special notice posted in August stated. "The ultimate objective of this program is to acquire a highly concealable Sub Compact Weapon (SCW) system capable of engaging threat personnel with a high volume of lethal force while accurately firing at close range with minimal collateral damage."

They require a weapon with greater lethality than a pistol, yet choose a pistol caliber (9mm) weapon? The barrel is 6.9 inches, less than 2 inches longer than my M&P 2.0 5" 9mm. Can two more inches of barrel really achieve "greater lethality" than a pistol? Or is the point that the 30 round magazine/full auto capability makes it more lethal...with "minimal collateral damage" (run innocent bystanders!!)?

Seems to me for real "greater lethality" they would have gone with something like a .300 Blackout AR Pistol.

Nobody does stupid quite like the military procurement system.....

It's not suppose to be a combat weapon. It's intended to be used by military guards. Perhaps High ranking Military or Political leaders. There is a reason that you don't see secret service carrying M-4s while they are closely guarding our Presidents. With shrinking barrel lengths rifle caliber ammunition stat losing effectivness while pistol calibers tend to benefit with the longer barrels. I believe that the greater lethality is gained not just with the extra inches and select fire, but with accuracy gained with a foldable shoulder stock.

300 BO is not an approved NATO round and was probably never considered.9mm will kill someone just as dead as a 50cal BMG.

bblhd672 wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:23 am I never said it is supposed to be a combat weapon. I was merely questioning replacement of a 9mm pistol with a 9mm submachine gun.

Scott B. wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:14 pm

bblhd672 wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:23 am I never said it is supposed to be a combat weapon. I was merely questioning replacement of a 9mm pistol with a 9mm submachine gun.

Would you rather face off with a guy armed with a pistol or an SMG? These are for protection details. They need small, concealable arms that can make an attacker either die or start thinking about self-preservation. Two or four detail guys breaking out some angry sewing machines will do that over pistols any day.

Scott B. wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:14 pm

bblhd672 wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:23 am I never said it is supposed to be a combat weapon. I was merely questioning replacement of a 9mm pistol with a 9mm submachine gun.

Would you rather face off with a guy armed with a pistol or an SMG? These are for protection details. They need small, concealable arms that can make an attacker either die or start thinking about self-preservation. Two or four detail guys breaking out some angry sewing machines will do that over pistols any day.

MaduroBU wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:31 pm

Scott B. wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:14 pm

bblhd672 wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:23 am I never said it is supposed to be a combat weapon. I was merely questioning replacement of a 9mm pistol with a 9mm submachine gun.

Would you rather face off with a guy armed with a pistol or an SMG? These are for protection details. They need small, concealable arms that can make an attacker either die or start thinking about self-preservation. Two or four detail guys breaking out some angry sewing machines will do that over pistols any day.

The depends. If the attackers are wearing even level II kevlar, the SMG is no better than the pistol. An SBR bullpup means that only ceramic rifle plates would help the attackers. Considering the very different level of concealability of level III+plates vs level II, it stands to reason that the rifle is the better choice unless it's much larger.

I think it's also worth noting that a pistol can be very effective to 50m with training.

Bitter Clinger wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:42 pm

MaduroBU wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:31 pm

Scott B. wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:14 pm

bblhd672 wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:23 am I never said it is supposed to be a combat weapon. I was merely questioning replacement of a 9mm pistol with a 9mm submachine gun.

Would you rather face off with a guy armed with a pistol or an SMG? These are for protection details. They need small, concealable arms that can make an attacker either die or start thinking about self-preservation. Two or four detail guys breaking out some angry sewing machines will do that over pistols any day.

The depends. If the attackers are wearing even level II kevlar, the SMG is no better than the pistol. An SBR bullpup means that only ceramic rifle plates would help the attackers. Considering the very different level of concealability of level III+plates vs level II, it stands to reason that the rifle is the better choice unless it's much larger.

I think it's also worth noting that a pistol can be very effective to 50m with training.

Really? Get yourself a pistol caliber subgun (shoulder mounted) with a RDS and see how much more accurate it is than a HANDGUN. Headshots all day long out well beyond the range where you would be anywhere near that accurate with a HANDGUN. There is a HUGE difference!

Bitter Clinger wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:42 pm

MaduroBU wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:31 pm

Scott B. wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:14 pm

bblhd672 wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:23 am I never said it is supposed to be a combat weapon. I was merely questioning replacement of a 9mm pistol with a 9mm submachine gun.

Would you rather face off with a guy armed with a pistol or an SMG? These are for protection details. They need small, concealable arms that can make an attacker either die or start thinking about self-preservation. Two or four detail guys breaking out some angry sewing machines will do that over pistols any day.

The depends. If the attackers are wearing even level II kevlar, the SMG is no better than the pistol. An SBR bullpup means that only ceramic rifle plates would help the attackers. Considering the very different level of concealability of level III+plates vs level II, it stands to reason that the rifle is the better choice unless it's much larger.

I think it's also worth noting that a pistol can be very effective to 50m with training.

Really? Get yourself a pistol caliber subgun (shoulder mounted) with a RDS and see how much more accurate it is than a HANDGUN. Headshots all day long out well beyond the range where you would be anywhere near that accurate with a HANDGUN. There is a HUGE difference!

MaduroBU wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:39 pm

Bitter Clinger wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:42 pm

MaduroBU wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:31 pm

Scott B. wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:14 pm

bblhd672 wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:23 am I never said it is supposed to be a combat weapon. I was merely questioning replacement of a 9mm pistol with a 9mm submachine gun.

Would you rather face off with a guy armed with a pistol or an SMG? These are for protection details. They need small, concealable arms that can make an attacker either die or start thinking about self-preservation. Two or four detail guys breaking out some angry sewing machines will do that over pistols any day.

The depends. If the attackers are wearing even level II kevlar, the SMG is no better than the pistol. An SBR bullpup means that only ceramic rifle plates would help the attackers. Considering the very different level of concealability of level III+plates vs level II, it stands to reason that the rifle is the better choice unless it's much larger.

I think it's also worth noting that a pistol can be very effective to 50m with training.

Really? Get yourself a pistol caliber subgun (shoulder mounted) with a RDS and see how much more accurate it is than a HANDGUN. Headshots all day long out well beyond the range where you would be anywhere near that accurate with a HANDGUN. There is a HUGE difference!

I completely agree that for a given amount of training it is easier to shoot accurately with a shoulder fired weapon. My point is that once you've accepted the extra size and weight that "shoulder-fired" requires, there is little reason to forego extra power. I'm not sure that going for headshots during a necessarily chaotic personal protection detail shootout is the right way to go, particularly when that limitation is entirely self imposed by (IMO poor) gear choices.

Bitter Clinger wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:36 pm

MaduroBU wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:39 pm

Bitter Clinger wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:42 pm

MaduroBU wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:31 pm

Scott B. wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:14 pm

bblhd672 wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:23 am I never said it is supposed to be a combat weapon. I was merely questioning replacement of a 9mm pistol with a 9mm submachine gun.

Would you rather face off with a guy armed with a pistol or an SMG? These are for protection details. They need small, concealable arms that can make an attacker either die or start thinking about self-preservation. Two or four detail guys breaking out some angry sewing machines will do that over pistols any day.

The depends. If the attackers are wearing even level II kevlar, the SMG is no better than the pistol. An SBR bullpup means that only ceramic rifle plates would help the attackers. Considering the very different level of concealability of level III+plates vs level II, it stands to reason that the rifle is the better choice unless it's much larger.

I think it's also worth noting that a pistol can be very effective to 50m with training.

Really? Get yourself a pistol caliber subgun (shoulder mounted) with a RDS and see how much more accurate it is than a HANDGUN. Headshots all day long out well beyond the range where you would be anywhere near that accurate with a HANDGUN. There is a HUGE difference!

I completely agree that for a given amount of training it is easier to shoot accurately with a shoulder fired weapon. My point is that once you've accepted the extra size and weight that "shoulder-fired" requires, there is little reason to forego extra power. I'm not sure that going for headshots during a necessarily chaotic personal protection detail shootout is the right way to go, particularly when that limitation is entirely self imposed by (IMO poor) gear choices.

If your attacker is armored up, you had best have trained with something other than center mass hits under stress.