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chasfm11 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 5:44 am

The Annoyed Man wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 11:32 pm Your car packs more impact energy than any handgun. If someone is trying to smash their way into my car, they’re going to get run over....end of story. You might be able to shoot your way out of a deadly confrontation with one or two people, but you can't shoot your way out of a confrontation with more people than you have bullets in your gun. I have no clue if it’s the right answer from a legal perspective, but I’d rather explain to a judge that I ran over an attacker while trying to evade a mob, than explain why I stopped in the middle of that mob and stared shooting....EVEN IF it seemed like the only option I had left at the time. And by the way, this is a powerful argument for having a dash cam running, to bolster your defense in court, in case you do have to use your front bumper to punt someone into the next county.

I am by no means against using a handgun for self defense, but it may not be the best tool for the job when you have a 2-3 ton vehicle at your disposal, and you’re safely inside of it.

To be clear, my situation was one where, by the time I got to the intersection, no one was blocking my way or even attempting to do so. That had not been the case less than a minute before for the drivers 10 cars ahead of me. If the path forward is my only path out of the situation (middle of 3 lanes headed in my direction and cars behind me) I'll try to take that.

But the video I had seen left no drive-way option. The cars were pinned on all sides and with the protesters in front. Now the energy of the car is useless. And had the protestors continued to stop the cars in front of me, that was my exact situation. I wasn't going to run over anyone because there was no room to move the car in any direction. It is under those circumstances that the next level starts.

I've pondered getting a dash cam. But as others have pointed out in links, the facts may not matter in legal cases. The angle on any video can be critiqued as not fully representative of the situation.

Thanks for all of the links to other situations from other posters.

If my life is in danger I don't care what the legal ramifications are of staying alive. Someone smashes my window and starts pulling me out of my car will be shot. Anyone coming to continue the attack on me will also be shot. Rinse and repeat until out of rounds.

03Lightningrocks wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 6:13 am

chasfm11 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 5:44 am

The Annoyed Man wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 11:32 pm Your car packs more impact energy than any handgun. If someone is trying to smash their way into my car, they’re going to get run over....end of story. You might be able to shoot your way out of a deadly confrontation with one or two people, but you can't shoot your way out of a confrontation with more people than you have bullets in your gun. I have no clue if it’s the right answer from a legal perspective, but I’d rather explain to a judge that I ran over an attacker while trying to evade a mob, than explain why I stopped in the middle of that mob and stared shooting....EVEN IF it seemed like the only option I had left at the time. And by the way, this is a powerful argument for having a dash cam running, to bolster your defense in court, in case you do have to use your front bumper to punt someone into the next county.

I am by no means against using a handgun for self defense, but it may not be the best tool for the job when you have a 2-3 ton vehicle at your disposal, and you’re safely inside of it.

To be clear, my situation was one where, by the time I got to the intersection, no one was blocking my way or even attempting to do so. That had not been the case less than a minute before for the drivers 10 cars ahead of me. If the path forward is my only path out of the situation (middle of 3 lanes headed in my direction and cars behind me) I'll try to take that.

But the video I had seen left no drive-way option. The cars were pinned on all sides and with the protesters in front. Now the energy of the car is useless. And had the protestors continued to stop the cars in front of me, that was my exact situation. I wasn't going to run over anyone because there was no room to move the car in any direction. It is under those circumstances that the next level starts.

I've pondered getting a dash cam. But as others have pointed out in links, the facts may not matter in legal cases. The angle on any video can be critiqued as not fully representative of the situation.

Thanks for all of the links to other situations from other posters.

If my life is in danger I don't care what the legal ramifications are of staying alive. Someone smashes my window and starts pulling me out of my car will be shot. Anyone coming to continue the attack on me will also be shot. Rinse and repeat until out of rounds.

Yeah, when they pull you from the car just go John Wick on them. That'll defuse the situation.

cirus wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 8:12 am

03Lightningrocks wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 6:13 am

chasfm11 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 5:44 am

The Annoyed Man wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 11:32 pm Your car packs more impact energy than any handgun. If someone is trying to smash their way into my car, they’re going to get run over....end of story. You might be able to shoot your way out of a deadly confrontation with one or two people, but you can't shoot your way out of a confrontation with more people than you have bullets in your gun. I have no clue if it’s the right answer from a legal perspective, but I’d rather explain to a judge that I ran over an attacker while trying to evade a mob, than explain why I stopped in the middle of that mob and stared shooting....EVEN IF it seemed like the only option I had left at the time. And by the way, this is a powerful argument for having a dash cam running, to bolster your defense in court, in case you do have to use your front bumper to punt someone into the next county.

I am by no means against using a handgun for self defense, but it may not be the best tool for the job when you have a 2-3 ton vehicle at your disposal, and you’re safely inside of it.

To be clear, my situation was one where, by the time I got to the intersection, no one was blocking my way or even attempting to do so. That had not been the case less than a minute before for the drivers 10 cars ahead of me. If the path forward is my only path out of the situation (middle of 3 lanes headed in my direction and cars behind me) I'll try to take that.

But the video I had seen left no drive-way option. The cars were pinned on all sides and with the protesters in front. Now the energy of the car is useless. And had the protestors continued to stop the cars in front of me, that was my exact situation. I wasn't going to run over anyone because there was no room to move the car in any direction. It is under those circumstances that the next level starts.

I've pondered getting a dash cam. But as others have pointed out in links, the facts may not matter in legal cases. The angle on any video can be critiqued as not fully representative of the situation.

Thanks for all of the links to other situations from other posters.

If my life is in danger I don't care what the legal ramifications are of staying alive. Someone smashes my window and starts pulling me out of my car will be shot. Anyone coming to continue the attack on me will also be shot. Rinse and repeat until out of rounds.

Yeah, when they pull you from the car just go John Wick on them. That'll defuse the situation.

My hope would be that I would run out of people wanting to be shot but yeah, it would be a bad situation. It would still be better than being pulled out of the car like a sheep and beaten to death. There are times when death may be inevitable at the hands of others. Taking a few of them with me is much better than going alone with my tail tucked between my legs. We carry a firearm because we are people who are prepared to fight for our lives. Dying without even trying voids the reason to carry.

03Lightningrocks wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 8:17 am

cirus wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 8:12 am

03Lightningrocks wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 6:13 am

chasfm11 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 5:44 am

The Annoyed Man wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 11:32 pm Your car packs more impact energy than any handgun. If someone is trying to smash their way into my car, they’re going to get run over....end of story. You might be able to shoot your way out of a deadly confrontation with one or two people, but you can't shoot your way out of a confrontation with more people than you have bullets in your gun. I have no clue if it’s the right answer from a legal perspective, but I’d rather explain to a judge that I ran over an attacker while trying to evade a mob, than explain why I stopped in the middle of that mob and stared shooting....EVEN IF it seemed like the only option I had left at the time. And by the way, this is a powerful argument for having a dash cam running, to bolster your defense in court, in case you do have to use your front bumper to punt someone into the next county.

I am by no means against using a handgun for self defense, but it may not be the best tool for the job when you have a 2-3 ton vehicle at your disposal, and you’re safely inside of it.

To be clear, my situation was one where, by the time I got to the intersection, no one was blocking my way or even attempting to do so. That had not been the case less than a minute before for the drivers 10 cars ahead of me. If the path forward is my only path out of the situation (middle of 3 lanes headed in my direction and cars behind me) I'll try to take that.

But the video I had seen left no drive-way option. The cars were pinned on all sides and with the protesters in front. Now the energy of the car is useless. And had the protestors continued to stop the cars in front of me, that was my exact situation. I wasn't going to run over anyone because there was no room to move the car in any direction. It is under those circumstances that the next level starts.

I've pondered getting a dash cam. But as others have pointed out in links, the facts may not matter in legal cases. The angle on any video can be critiqued as not fully representative of the situation.

Thanks for all of the links to other situations from other posters.

If my life is in danger I don't care what the legal ramifications are of staying alive. Someone smashes my window and starts pulling me out of my car will be shot. Anyone coming to continue the attack on me will also be shot. Rinse and repeat until out of rounds.

Yeah, when they pull you from the car just go John Wick on them. That'll defuse the situation.

My hope would be that I would run out of people wanting to be shot but yeah, it would be a bad situation. It would still be better than being pulled out of the car like a sheep and beaten to death. There are times when death may be inevitable at the hands of others. Taking a few of them with me is much better than going alone with my tail tucked between my legs. We carry a firearm because we are people who are prepared to fight for our lives. Dying without even trying voids the reason to carry.

Running over members of a mob who are trying to drag you out of the car isn’t "not trying". Granted, you may have to fire through your window at the individual grabbing at you, in the process of evading the situation, but getting the heck OUT of there if at all possible is the preferred outcome, and 2-legged speedbumps who are trying to kill you deserve no consideration.

Could Reginald Denny have shot his way out of what happened to him, had he had a gun? I seriously doubt it. Last night, a FedEx driver, caught in a similar situation, stayed in his truck and bugged out. An attacker was dragged and killed. Good riddance. A video of it can be seen here: https://twitter.com/cassandrarules/sta ... 82656?s=21. I didn’t embed the tweet because there’s some forbidden language in the video....but see for yourselves.

I’m seeing other truck drivers on twitter saying that if a mob tries to stop them, they’ll "FedEx 'em".

I have car insurance and a lawyer. But even if my insurance won’t pay for a new bumper, I’d rather try to drive my way out of a mob than have to shoot my way out. Shooting my way out would be the last resort, when I’m surrounded by the steel body of my SUV and still have the option of 4-wheelin' over some attackers.

Now, if I’m trapped on foot and have no other alternative, then I’ll do what I have to do. But I’d hope to be able to react with my vehicle and stay inside of it before being reduced to a last stand at the Alamo.

In any self-defense situation, it is important that we know the law. Attorney Andrew Branca discusses the 5 elements of a claim of self-defense. https://lawofselfdefense.com/beginjourney/

John Correia, Active Self Protection, has reviewed several use of force incidents involving a vehicle. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsE_m2 ... vehicle%5C

The Annoyed Man wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 9:11 am

03Lightningrocks wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 8:17 am

cirus wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 8:12 am

03Lightningrocks wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 6:13 am

chasfm11 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 5:44 am

The Annoyed Man wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 11:32 pm Your car packs more impact energy than any handgun. If someone is trying to smash their way into my car, they’re going to get run over....end of story. You might be able to shoot your way out of a deadly confrontation with one or two people, but you can't shoot your way out of a confrontation with more people than you have bullets in your gun. I have no clue if it’s the right answer from a legal perspective, but I’d rather explain to a judge that I ran over an attacker while trying to evade a mob, than explain why I stopped in the middle of that mob and stared shooting....EVEN IF it seemed like the only option I had left at the time. And by the way, this is a powerful argument for having a dash cam running, to bolster your defense in court, in case you do have to use your front bumper to punt someone into the next county.

I am by no means against using a handgun for self defense, but it may not be the best tool for the job when you have a 2-3 ton vehicle at your disposal, and you’re safely inside of it.

To be clear, my situation was one where, by the time I got to the intersection, no one was blocking my way or even attempting to do so. That had not been the case less than a minute before for the drivers 10 cars ahead of me. If the path forward is my only path out of the situation (middle of 3 lanes headed in my direction and cars behind me) I'll try to take that.

But the video I had seen left no drive-way option. The cars were pinned on all sides and with the protesters in front. Now the energy of the car is useless. And had the protestors continued to stop the cars in front of me, that was my exact situation. I wasn't going to run over anyone because there was no room to move the car in any direction. It is under those circumstances that the next level starts.

I've pondered getting a dash cam. But as others have pointed out in links, the facts may not matter in legal cases. The angle on any video can be critiqued as not fully representative of the situation.

Thanks for all of the links to other situations from other posters.

If my life is in danger I don't care what the legal ramifications are of staying alive. Someone smashes my window and starts pulling me out of my car will be shot. Anyone coming to continue the attack on me will also be shot. Rinse and repeat until out of rounds.

Yeah, when they pull you from the car just go John Wick on them. That'll defuse the situation.

My hope would be that I would run out of people wanting to be shot but yeah, it would be a bad situation. It would still be better than being pulled out of the car like a sheep and beaten to death. There are times when death may be inevitable at the hands of others. Taking a few of them with me is much better than going alone with my tail tucked between my legs. We carry a firearm because we are people who are prepared to fight for our lives. Dying without even trying voids the reason to carry.

Running over members of a mob who are trying to drag you out of the car isn’t "not trying". Granted, you may have to fire through your window at the individual grabbing at you, in the process of evading the situation, but getting the heck OUT of there if at all possible is the preferred outcome, and 2-legged speedbumps who are trying to kill you deserve no consideration.

Could Reginald Denny have shot his way out of what happened to him, had he had a gun? I seriously doubt it. Last night, a FedEx driver, caught in a similar situation, stayed in his truck and bugged out. An attacker was dragged and killed. Good riddance. A video of it can be seen here: https://twitter.com/cassandrarules/sta ... 82656?s=21. I didn’t embed the tweet because there’s some forbidden language in the video....but see for yourselves.

I’m seeing other truck drivers on twitter saying that if a mob tries to stop them, they’ll "FedEx 'em".

I have car insurance and a lawyer. But even if my insurance won’t pay for a new bumper, I’d rather try to drive my way out of a mob than have to shoot my way out. Shooting my way out would be the last resort, when I’m surrounded by the steel body of my SUV and still have the option of 4-wheelin' over some attackers.

Now, if I’m trapped on foot and have no other alternative, then I’ll do what I have to do. But I’d hope to be able to react with my vehicle and stay inside of it before being reduced to a last stand at the Alamo.

My answer is based on being blocked in by vehicles and unable to drive away. Of coarse one would drive away if not blocked in. The person he brought up, that was dragged from the vehicle, was blocked in by cars and could not drive away.

chasfm11 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 5:44 am But the video I had seen left no drive-way option. The cars were pinned on all sides and with the protesters in front.

03Lightningrocks wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 10:22 am

chasfm11 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 5:44 am But the video I had seen left no drive-way option. The cars were pinned on all sides and with the protesters in front.

My answer is based on being blocked in by vehicles and unable to drive away. Of coarse one would drive away if not blocked in. The person he brought up, that was dragged from the vehicle, was blocked in by cars and could not drive away.

I'm sorry if I created confusion. I had my own situation which was different than the video that I compared it to. There were far fewer protestors for me than in the video. I didn't see exactly how the protestors in my case were impeding traffic but they were. The cars ahead of me took a while to move after the light changed and I could see the protestors moving back toward the curb. The protestors in the video didn't to that. I agree that there was no-drive away option in the video. And if the protesters in my case had attempted to continue to block the cars in front of me, I wouldn't have had a drive away option either.

chasfm11 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 11:06 am

03Lightningrocks wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 10:22 am

chasfm11 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 5:44 am But the video I had seen left no drive-way option. The cars were pinned on all sides and with the protesters in front.

My answer is based on being blocked in by vehicles and unable to drive away. Of coarse one would drive away if not blocked in. The person he brought up, that was dragged from the vehicle, was blocked in by cars and could not drive away.

I'm sorry if I created confusion. I had my own situation which was different than the video that I compared it to. There were far fewer protestors for me than in the video. I didn't see exactly how the protestors in my case were impeding traffic but they were. The cars ahead of me took a while to move after the light changed and I could see the protestors moving back toward the curb. The protestors in the video didn't to that. I agree that there was no-drive away option in the video. And if the protesters in my case had attempted to continue to block the cars in front of me, I wouldn't have had a drive away option either.

I just figured TAM missed the part about not being able to drive away.Glad to hear you were not caught up in that manner. I would hate to read about a guy from this forum dying by beating with 18 shot dead attackers laying around him.

You shoot a protester, you will go to prison. You run over a protester you will go to prison. It is a no win situation, especially if you are a white middle aged male. For such as me there isn't any such thing of self-defense in today's political climate during these type of protests, read riots. I personally will simply do all I can to not get caught up around any protests/riots. If that fails, I will have to really review my options. Prison for me is a total no-go and I mean total. Also, at my age, anything over 15 years means life, so I guess in for a penny in for a pound.
Remember that boy that drove through those protesters in Charleston, WV. He could have been just scared kid and trying to get away, now he is a White Supremacist, Nazi, with a Life Sentence for murder and the girl who died is a hero and martyr. All of those folks that tried to drive through or shot folks attacking them have been arrested. One SUV driver was even shot by Law Enforcement and guarantee, no matter what your political beliefs are, by the end of the day, the Media will have you made out to be a Nazi murderer, who intentionally drove to the area and wanted to kill those peaceful protesters.
I am a Christian and I will do what I need to do to protect my wife and home and suck up the consequences, but for just my protection? I don't know if I want to accept those consequences. So, I will do all I can to just stay away, as I know that I am a White, Christian, Middle Aged Male and have already been pronounced guilty by our wonderful media, before anything has even occurred. Rioters come to my Neighborhood, my Neighbors and I have already discussed our actions, all of us are also Veterans, so not our first rodeo, but there are many of us, so if all of us protect our homes, now it isn't just one individual's voice, it is several. Be safe folks.

https://streamable.com/u2jzoo

Not sure what the police were firing at these homeowner on their porch in Democrat controlled Minneapolis.

“Light them up” Rioters hard to shoot, homeowners on their porch easy targets.

Touch the dark part not the cheaters ad sorry both that.

In Texas, I'm not as certain as DEB that use of deadly force in a riot situation is an automatic prison sentence. In fact, PC Section 9.31 addresses it explicitly: "The actor's belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment..."

To be clear, much of what's been going on is not a protest: it's Antifa-driven intentional violence with its only goal to cause chaos and destruction. IMHO, it's a form of domestic terrorism and should be treated as such. I'm certain that if Dr. Martin Luther King were alive today, he would be the first to publicly and strongly condemn it. Any socially relevant or needed message is being buried under anarchy, arson, looting, and violence.

I'm doing my very best to steer clear of dense urban areas. But maybe we need either inexpensive bodycams or at least interior cameras as well as a dashcam. They don't cost a lot these days, and some even have an option to upload stored video to the cloud when an access point is available.

And if you've never experienced trying to use a concealed handgun from inside a vehicle, it's an eye-opening event. Or ear closing event, too...refer to the thread about TAM's hearing loss and the instances when TAM and AndyC both suffered temporary hearing loss from close-by firearm discharge. I took a course a few years ago where the inside-vehicle stuff was addressed. At least some of it; it could no doubt be a full two-day course on its own. We used an ancient junker Impala; engine still cranked, and the steering wheel, doors and seats still worked. All windows remained open, but even with good hearing protection, firing from inside the car--unless the gun was extended actually out of the driver's window with the left hand--seemed about five times as loud as using an indoor range. I have no doubt that the first one or two rounds without hearing protection would cause you to temporarily lose one of your senses for all practical purposes.

Then there are all sorts of other tactical matters like access to and placement of the gun (seatbelt, steering wheel, dashboard, and car door issues), and the grips posible on your handgun if deployed inside a vehicle. Muzzle flash and proximity to your body in such close quarters. What to do if you need to fire through the passenger window...and there's a passenger in the car. Mag changes while seated in the car. What to do about glass: trying to shoot through an unbroken windshield with most common handgun calibers I learned may not be the best idea; even through glass that's already fractured will almost certainly result in some deflection from point-of-aim. Now I'm feeling the need to go find another course like that because I've clearly forgotten far more than I learned.

But bottom line is that I suspect the vast majority of LTC holders never trained, or even thought much about, use of a gun from inside a car or cab of a pickup. Last night, literally thousands of National Guard troops and Military Police were called up to assist local police departments around the country...I think the number was 4,100 military personnel in Minneapolis alone. Rioting, burning, and looting would have much, much worse. But even so, it still happened.

I think I'll go out in the garage, shut myself in the SUV, and do some dry-fire practice...

The Annoyed Man wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 9:11 am Running over members of a mob who are trying to drag you out of the car isn’t "not trying". Granted, you may have to fire through your window at the individual grabbing at you, in the process of evading the situation, but getting the heck OUT of there if at all possible is the preferred outcome, and 2-legged speedbumps who are trying to kill you deserve no consideration.

Could Reginald Denny have shot his way out of what happened to him, had he had a gun? I seriously doubt it. Last night, a FedEx driver, caught in a similar situation, stayed in his truck and bugged out. An attacker was dragged and killed. Good riddance. A video of it can be seen here: https://twitter.com/cassandrarules/sta ... 82656?s=21. I didn’t embed the tweet because there’s some forbidden language in the video....but see for yourselves.

I’m seeing other truck drivers on twitter saying that if a mob tries to stop them, they’ll "FedEx 'em".

I have car insurance and a lawyer. But even if my insurance won’t pay for a new bumper, I’d rather try to drive my way out of a mob than have to shoot my way out. Shooting my way out would be the last resort, when I’m surrounded by the steel body of my SUV and still have the option of 4-wheelin' over some attackers.

Now, if I’m trapped on foot and have no other alternative, then I’ll do what I have to do. But I’d hope to be able to react with my vehicle and stay inside of it before being reduced to a last stand at the Alamo.

From one of the tweets further down there was something similar to this. Am I a horrible person for laughing at this.

Maybe I do need to watch CNN. Because maybe I'm not seeing--even after watching about eight hours of protest/riot news coverage over the past two days--what everyone else is seeing. Comments from the democrats in charge of Minnesota:

Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz on Saturday told reporters he'd heard unconfirmed reports that white supremacists were coming from elsewhere to stoke the violence and that even drug cartels "are trying to take advantage of the chaos." John Harrington, the state's commissioner of public safety, later said they had received intel reports on white supremacists.

https://abc13.com/who-are-the-protester ... s/6222958/

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Anyone with a tactical mindest should, by now, be aware of the potential danger and avoid any possible contact with one of these mobs.

This is the new normal post the Obamination administration. We have certainly seen protests before, but when the anti-Christ chinacrats decided to use such events for political capitol, we see it spread all across the country like the Chinese Flu.

Not even once have I seen the question of "what if" raised, as in what if Mr. Floyd had not tried to pass a counterfeit $20 bill. The cop responsible was a moron of the worst kind with a service record to prove it. He should not have been able to wear the uniform. Eventually, it will get worse than just when a white cop kills a black man. Just this past week you might have read about the 70 year-old man who shot a home invader who went on to assaulting his wife. How long before they protest the killing of a black man who was undoubtedly in the commission of a felony, even if he is trying to cause bodily harm or death to his victims? And we all know how the Zimmerman event played out, Ferguson, MO etc.

Between the chinacrat party and the communist news networks, it's only a matter of time until we see these protests after a white man uses lethal force in preventing a black man from doing harm to his family or himself. In the meantime, there are no protests, and won't be for the black man who kills another black man in criminal activity, multiple times per day in the city of Chicago, home of Barry Soetoro, the community disorganizer!

https://www.tmz.com/2020/05/30/salt-lak ... -attacked/

Man uses bow and arrows on protestors. Swarmed,
attacked.

Note to self: don’t be stupid.