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I (we) as a juror was told by Collin County DA that:

1 A threat to others due to intoxication
2 A threat to oneself due to intoxication
OR
3 A BAC of .08 or more

Jason73 wrote:

frankie_the_yankee wrote:

lawrnk wrote:I didn't go through all 11 pages, but my instructor yesterday said a single drop can be grounds for arrest while carrying.

He's full of baloney. I would be very skeptical of anything else he told me. I would also seek out a different instructor when it's time to renew. Yours is obviously hung up on his own fantasies.

My instructor told us the exact same thing, as do many instructors based on the conversations I've had with fellow CHL'ers.

The guy who did my recent renewal class spewed this same nonsense. I've come to think there is a subcatagory of "preachy" instructors who are in love with the sounds of their particular cockeyed theories.

The only way to fully describe instructors who preach that nonsense would require violating the 10 year old daughter rule. I'm not gonna do it.

This was all hashed out in the the earlier parts of this thread. Read through it. TXI and others had some good insights.

There's no way that a person with normal response to alcohol would be violating the law after having one drink, let alone "one drop".

The "one drop" people, ESPECIALLY THE INSTRUCTORS, really need to get with the idea of separation of church and state.

Jason73 wrote: As far as being intoxicated while carrying, that is definitely grounds for arrest according to page 61 in that nifty little white book that came with the CHL application.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/ftp/forms/ls-16.pdf

Q: Can I carry a handgun if I am drinking alcohol?
A: No; it is illegal to carry a handgun if you are intoxicated.

Notice that the answer in the DPS book IS NOT THE ANSWER TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION. They don't say whether you can carry while drinking. They just say you can't carry while intoxicated.

Big difference.

frankie_the_yankee wrote:

Jason73 wrote: As far as being intoxicated while carrying, that is definitely grounds for arrest according to page 61 in that nifty little white book that came with the CHL application.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/ftp/forms/ls-16.pdf

Q: Can I carry a handgun if I am drinking alcohol?
A: No; it is illegal to carry a handgun if you are intoxicated.

Notice that the answer in the DPS book IS NOT THE ANSWER TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION. They don't say whether you can carry while drinking. They just say you can't carry while intoxicated.

Big difference.

You beat me to it.

If it was in the driver's license handbook, I suppose it would go like this:

Q: Can I turn right on a red light after coming to a complete stop?
A: No, it's illegal to run red lights.

DSARGE wrote:How many of you have a beer or two while carrying? Spent Sat morning with a guy from work checking out a few gun shops and sporting goods stores. Of course, both of us were carrying. I know him from work, but this was the first time I ever hung out with him in a social setting. We wound up at a hamburger joint, and he ordered a beer. He had two over the course of lunch. It is none of my business what anyone does, and this is not illegal--just a personal decision. This got me to thinking. What if one had to use his weapon--what kind of defense would he have concerning decision making if you have alchohol in your system--regardless of the amount? What if you got "made" sitting at a table full of empty beer bottles? What do ya'll think?

I never drink anything stronger than iced tea, coffee or like drinks, so it would not be relevant to me.

Man that hamburger sounds good though.

Hoppes

frankie_the_yankee wrote:....really need to get with the idea of separation of church and state.

Don't even get me started on that one!!! "Separation of church and state" doesn't appear ANYWHERE in the Consitution. And that's all I'll say, except read the first amendment CAREFULLY. Sorry, I hope this doesn't start a firestorm, but that is one of the big 3 for me (RKBA being another).

How does the sepration of church and state compromise the integrity or intent of the constitution. Remember, Our forefathers moved here to get away from state controlled religion, ie, the catholic church, that's why they are called protestant.

Relax guys. It's just an expression. What I meant was that some of the teetotaler or "not one drop" people seem to have almost a religious fervor about it.

I have no intention of starting a 1st Amendment thread.

My own belief is that:

1) One drink does not impair my judgement in any significant way.
2) It is NOT illegal to carry after having one drink.
3) There is no moral justification for why I should give up my rights to the means of self defense just because I chose to have one drink.
4) Instructors who claim that one drink is illegal are full of baloney. IMO, this makes all of their other pronouncements and interpretations suspect. For that reason, I would not knowingly patronize them.

Finally, I would invite those not familiar to read this whole thread before posting. Most of your concerns have been addressed in spades.

I admit, I did not read the whole 11 pages before posting... Sue me... :-)

frankie_the_yankee wrote:Relax guys. It's just an expression. What I meant was that some of the teetotaler or "not one drop" people seem to have almost a religious fervor about it.

I have no intention of starting a 1st Amendment thread.

My own belief is that:

1) One drink does not impair my judgement in any significant way.
2) It is NOT illegal to carry after having one drink.
3) There is no moral justification for why I should give up my rights to the means of self defense just because I chose to have one drink.
4) Instructors who claim that one drink is illegal are full of baloney. IMO, this makes all of their other pronouncements and interpretations suspect. For that reason, I would not knowingly patronize them.

Finally, I would invite those not familiar to read this whole thread before posting. Most of your concerns have been addressed in spades.

govnor wrote:I'm a heavy drinker. That means that I drink at least five drinks at one sitting once a week or drink every day. In my situation, it means that I get off work and drink a six pack sometimes (tall boys). On the weekends I might drink a half of a bottle of Jack. Yeah, in one night.

FWIW - It appears that you would NOT be elgible for a CHL due to being " a chemically dependent person" under 411.472 (6)
as defined in 411.171 (2):


"Chemically dependent person" means a person who
frequently or repeatedly becomes intoxicated by excessive indulgence
in alcohol or uses controlled substances or dangerous drugs so as to
acquire a fixed habit and an involuntary tendency to become intoxicated
or use those substances as often as the opportunity is
presented."

frankie_the_yankee wrote:Relax guys. It's just an expression. What I meant was that some of the teetotaler or "not one drop" people seem to have almost a religious fervor about it.

I have no intention of starting a 1st Amendment thread.

My own belief is that:

1) One drink does not impair my judgement in any significant way.
2) It is NOT illegal to carry after having one drink.
3) There is no moral justification for why I should give up my rights to the means of self defense just because I chose to have one drink.
4) Instructors who claim that one drink is illegal are full of baloney. IMO, this makes all of their other pronouncements and interpretations suspect. For that reason, I would not knowingly patronize them.

Finally, I would invite those not familiar to read this whole thread before posting. Most of your concerns have been addressed in spades.

+1

I carry pretty much 24/7 these days and if i'm out to dinner or something I do occasionally have a drink. I dont have much of a craving for heavy drinking since a bit with alcohol poisoning a few years back in my partying days, but even if it wasn't for that I wouldn't be irresponsible enough to let myself get toasted while carrying.

There is nothing wrong with having a drink that does not impair your judgment while carrying though. I do it occasionally myself.

That being said, if I DID have to use deadly force after having a drink I sure would regret that coming up when being questioned by the police or in court. That would not put any points in my favor.

frankie_the_yankee wrote:

Jason73 wrote: As far as being intoxicated while carrying, that is definitely grounds for arrest according to page 61 in that nifty little white book that came with the CHL application.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/ftp/forms/ls-16.pdf

Q: Can I carry a handgun if I am drinking alcohol?
A: No; it is illegal to carry a handgun if you are intoxicated.

Notice that the answer in the DPS book IS NOT THE ANSWER TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION. They don't say whether you can carry while drinking. They just say you can't carry while intoxicated.

Big difference.

Texas has issued an updated CHL handbook and the new one states the following:


Q: Can I carry a handgun if I am drinking alcohol?
A: “Carrying� while drinking is not prohibited, but it is a criminal
offense to carry while intoxicated.

Now someone needs to tell all the CHL instructors to stop spewing the "not a drop" spiel and making people (such as myself) believe they will go to jail for just smelling a beer while carrying.

So what is "normal"?


Subch. H. LICENSE TO CARRY A CONCEALED HANDGUN
GC §411.171. DEFINITIONS. In this subchapter:
(1) "Action" means single action, revolver, or semi-automatic
action.
(2) "Chemically dependent person" means a person who
frequently or repeatedly becomes intoxicated by excessive indulgence
in alcohol or uses controlled substances or dangerous drugs so as to
acquire a fixed habit and an involuntary tendency to become intoxicated
or use those substances as often as the opportunity is
presented.
(3) "Concealed handgun" means a handgun, the presence of
which is not openly discernible to the ordinary observation of a reasonable
person.
(4) "Convicted" means an adjudication of guilt or , except as
provided in Section 411.1711, an order of deferred adjudication
entered against a person by a court of competent jurisdiction whether
or not the imposition of the sentence is subsequently probated and
the person is discharged from community supervision. The term does
not include an adjudication of guilt or an order of deferred adjudication
that has been subsequently:
(A) expunged; or
(B) pardoned under the authority of a state or federal official.
(4-a) "Federal judge" means:
(A) a judge of a United States court of appeals;
(B) a judge of a United States district court;
(C) a judge of a United States bankruptcy court; or (D) a magistrate
judge of a United States district court.
(4-b) "State judge" means:
TEXAS CONCEALED HANDGUN LAWS GC §411.172. 3
(A) the judge of an appellate court, a district court, or a county
court at law of this state; or
(B) an associate judge appointed under Chapter 201, Family
Code.
(5) "Handgun" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.01,
Penal Code.
(6) "Intoxicated" has the meaning assigned by Section 49.01,
Penal Code.
(7) "Qualified handgun instructor" means a person who is certified
to instruct in the use of handguns by the department.
(8) * *[repealed by Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 62, Section 9.02.]




§ 49.01. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:
(1) "Alcohol concentration" means the number of grams
of alcohol per:
(A) 210 liters of breath;
(B) 100 milliliters of blood; or
(C) 67 milliliters of urine.
(2) "Intoxicated" means:
(A) not having the normal use of mental or
physical faculties by reason of the introduction of alcohol, a
controlled substance, a drug, a dangerous drug, a combination of
two or more of those substances, or any other substance into the
body; or
(B) having an alcohol concentration of 0.08 or
more.

Jason73 wrote:

frankie_the_yankee wrote:

Jason73 wrote: As far as being intoxicated while carrying, that is definitely grounds for arrest according to page 61 in that nifty little white book that came with the CHL application.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/ftp/forms/ls-16.pdf

Q: Can I carry a handgun if I am drinking alcohol?
A: No; it is illegal to carry a handgun if you are intoxicated.

Notice that the answer in the DPS book IS NOT THE ANSWER TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION. They don't say whether you can carry while drinking. They just say you can't carry while intoxicated.

Big difference.

Texas has issued an updated CHL handbook and the new one states the following:


Q: Can I carry a handgun if I am drinking alcohol?
A: “Carrying� while drinking is not prohibited, but it is a criminal
offense to carry while intoxicated.

Now someone needs to tell all the CHL instructors to stop spewing the "not a drop" spiel and making people (such as myself) believe they will go to jail for just smelling a beer while carrying.

BrassMonkey wrote:

Q: Can I carry a handgun if I am drinking alcohol?
A: “Carrying� while drinking is not prohibited, but it is a criminal
offense to carry while intoxicated.

Now someone needs to tell all the CHL instructors to stop spewing the "not a drop" spiel and making people (such as myself) believe they will go to jail for just smelling a beer while carrying.

I think its a a pretty fuzzy line and one I think some instructors err on the side of safety. I've know alcoholics that think 1 or two means a 1 or two fifths. I know teatotalers that don't believe that a beer with a dinner will affect ones judgement and responcss. I also have a relative that gets totally silly after 2 glasses of wine. Many folks aren't aware of what their real limits are.
Drinking while carrying is not something that is advisable to test ones limits. Every officer knows that almost every DWI that they pull over claims they only had 2. Will the officer really believe you when you tell him you had 2. They won't give you a BAC and its apt to boil down to a subjective opinion of a LEO.

Liberty wrote: I think its a a pretty fuzzy line and one I think some instructors err on the side of safety.

That's no excuse. Instructors should give an accurate rendering of the requirements of the law.

Liberty wrote: I've know alcoholics that think 1 or two means a 1 or two fifths.

I don't care what some alcoholic thinks. They are not eligible for CHL's anyway. When I pay money to take a class, I want to get accurate information.

Liberty wrote: I also have a relative that gets totally silly after 2 glasses of wine. Many folks aren't aware of what their real limits are.

If someone has an abnormal response to alcohol that is their problem, not mine. If they want to carry a gun, they should make it a point to learn their limits, just as I have.

Liberty wrote: Drinking while carrying is not something that is advisable to test ones limits.

Irrelevent. We are talking about people who already know where their limits are.

Liberty wrote: Every officer knows that almost every DWI that they pull over claims they only had 2. Will the officer really believe you when you tell him you had 2?

Also irrelevent. We are not talking about power drinkers claiming they only had two. We are talking about someone who might have a glass of beer or wine while enjoying a meal.

No one with a normal response to alcohol who has one drink will be acting in any way that would meet the legal definition of intoxicated, nor will they give an officer any cause to think they are.