A Comment About Our Educational System

[Oldgringo]

So you're ok with public school, you just don't want to pay for it? Mmm...ok.

Yes, I'm okay with public schools, whether ISD or Charter. I don't like to still be paying for public schools 50+ years after I graduated from HS and 30 years after my son graduated from his HS, both in far distant states.

Oldgringo, you are just a mean old man.

"I'm mad as {heck} and can't take it anymore".

[Oldgringo]

So you're ok with public school, you just don't want to pay for it? Mmm...ok.

Yes, I'm okay with public schools, whether ISD or Charter. I don't like to still be paying for public schools 50+ years after I graduated from HS and 30 years after my son graduated from his HS, both in far distant states.

There's a park in my neighborhood with a pool that I never swim in. I never drive on 5th street. I've never had the fire department come to my house.

But these and public schools are all common services paid for with tax dollars just like public schools and I don't get to pick and choose which I want to fund. Should I get a refund from the fire dept when I move if I never called them the entire time I lived here? That seems kind of ridiculous.

If I vote no on a school bond, and it passes then I'm going to accept that because that's how things work here.

There's nothing in the US or state constitutions that says we can't spend tax dollars on quality of life services. Schools are not working right because of the federal interference, Robin Hood and other issues but there is nothing fundamentally really wrong with local public schools and state colleges and universities.

Fire Departments, Police, Garbage Service, etc., are for the common good. Schools are for those who choose to replicate themselves through their children. I am a parent and paid those dues at the time. Why am I being forced to pay for the schooling of the spawn of people I don't even know, never heard of?

[mojo84]

Have any of you seen the movie Gifted Hands? It's on Netflix and I recommend you watch it. Its a prime example of people taking responsibility for themselves and doing the right thing. If anyone had a an excuse to whine, cry and blame the public school systems, racism and broken family it's the people in this movie. The answer isn't dropping out of society them railing on how bad the system is.

As independent liberty minded people, sometimes you have to be a part of the solution and make the best out of what you have. Dropping out of society and telling everyone to fin for themselves is a cop out. I have a feeling s lot of the teachers and schools wouldn't appear so bad if the kids and parents involved would do their part.

[VMI77]

Sorry, you're just wrong. Apparently you don't work in a technical field with either scientists or engineers.

VM, I work in a very technical field full of engineers. I went through that whole period of technical "outsourcing" that everyone thought would put an end to gainful domestic employment in technology as we were all being replaced by lower cost and equally "educated" engineers. That experiment largely failed for most companies and we found that it works only a very narrow set of circumstances. I ran both types of teams - domestic and outsourced.

Note, most of the people that I work with aren't educated to the PhD level. Almost all have higher Ed degrees under that level, so it could be that we're talking apples and oranges.

I think you and I agree - there has been steady erosion and decline of our competitiveness in terms of technological superiority.. I think we're still advantaged based on our head start that preceded that decline. And certainly we're advantaged by our currency and economy. And another thing you and I agree on - a high degree of technical education that doesn't allow for creativity, problem solving, and free thinking has limited use - that's part of why outsourcing failed.

I agree with you on the value, especially economic, of a liberal arts education.. I also know that's a personal bias.


If you've got a solution other than giving up mandated education and depending on churches for our educational system, I'm all ears... Otherwise, I'll continue to work to improve my local school system and make it as good as possible for my kids.

I dropped out of IEEE because they represented management in importing engineers to reduce engineer salaries. But to me I'm not really talking about outsourcing but actual engineers either naturalized or here on a visa. And yes, I agree on the problem solving and creativity.....Richard P. Feynman talked about teaching in Latin America, and how the students just memorized everything and didn't understand it.

Yes, I have solutions to improve public education.....it's not rocket science....but the politicians have no interest in educating our children....they like the results of the existing system because it produces ignorant, obedient serfs.

First, eliminate 90% of school administration. Schools don't really need principals and superintendents and all the other nonsense.

Second, make it illegal for public employees to be in a union....all public employees, not just school teachers. There is no rational basis for allowing unions to extort taxpayers.

Then you put teachers in charge of everything, but especially the classroom. The teachers select one of their own to fulfill whatever principal type duties are necessary. The teachers get together and collectively design their own curriculum. They submit this curriculum to the local school board for approval. Teachers that take on some of the administrative functions get paid more. The teachers collectively manage the school budget. I could go into more detail, but I hope you get the idea.....

[mamabearCali]

Have y'all been to a public school in the last ten years? Some of them are great. Most are mediocre. A few are horrendous. Now where are the horrendous schools? Right where you think they would be. The projects, the inner city. Now where are the amazing schools, right where you think they would be upper middle class neighborhoods. They get similar levels of funding. I know that the teaching staff is similar in nature. So what is the difference. The people attending the school. Sad to say it but some of the lower end schools will never catch up because the children are chemically damaged from birth. It is just a sad fact of life that those who love their children and value them will invest more in them from the very start.

I think you are attributing too much emphasis to whether the school is good or horrible based on student performance rather than teacher performance. Ratings are incorrectly based on an average of student performance.

Suppose you put a bunch of kids in a room and teach them about something they know nothing about.
Now give them a fair and meaningful test on the subject.

20% pass with 100%
80% fail with < 50%

Is this a horrid teacher? Is this a horrid school?

I say no because if the teacher had not presented and taught the material, there would be no way anybody would have passed.
The rating of schools should be based on grades of the top 20%, not the average of everyone there.

Of course nobody wants to do it this way because they don't want to admit their kids are lazy or stupid, it must be the school district's or teacher's fault.

I think what I was trying to say is that you get out of school what the student puts into it all things being equal. If you have chemically damaged children with little to no parental support you are going to get a drastic result from kids from a two parent household that give a darn about their kids.

Personally we pay about 2k a year in school taxes. Mostly I want them to leave me alone to educate my children, but it would be nice if they had a halfway decent schools for my neighbors. We will never ever get that if we keep up with testing the kids all the time instead of teaching them. We will never get that if we hire people so stupid that they are suspending children from drawing a gun shape.

[cb1000rider]

What planet are you on? My property taxes are $6,000 a year. I didn't spend that much homeschooling both my kids for their entire 16 years. The cost of education is not only already very very expensive, it's a rip off on top of it. Everyone could be better educated at 10% of the currents costs. The system is designed to fleece you.

We're not talking about the same thing. I'm talking about the cost to have kids educated at a school. You're talking about the cost to educate your own kids. Sure, you can home school for less.
As you're aware, of your $6000 tax bill, only a portion of that goes to the ISD. In my case, looking at my own taxes, it's about 60%. It's still a ton of money.
Private school for my kid would currently run about $750/month because he's young. How much does a high quality college-prep private school cost? I appreciate the fact that you could do it at home.. I can't make that decision in my situation.

I agree, there is something wrong here to be paying 60% of $6k year after year and we've still got an educational system that isn't first of the first world. I think it needs to be reformed rather than made entirely optional. It needs to be reformed if 50% of the ISD salaries are going to non-teachers.

[cb1000rider]

I dropped out of IEEE because they represented management in importing engineers to reduce engineer salaries. But to me I'm not really talking about outsourcing but actual engineers either naturalized or here on a visa. And yes, I agree on the problem solving and creativity.....Richard P. Feynman talked about teaching in Latin America, and how the students just memorized everything and didn't understand it.

If you're comparing naturalized engineers to engineers that are here on visa, that comparison isn't fair. The engineers with visas usually have sponsor employers and employers can be very picky about who they select from overseas. That is, you're comparing naturalized engineers to a very select group that got visas. I know great H1B engineers also, but I really don't think that the educational systems that they came from are necessarily better than ours.

Yes, I have solutions to improve public education.....it's not rocket science....but the politicians have no interest in educating our children....they like the results of the existing system because it produces ignorant, obedient serfs.
First, eliminate 90% of school administration. Schools don't really need principals and superintendents and all the other nonsense.
Second, make it illegal for public employees to be in a union....all public employees, not just school teachers. There is no rational basis for allowing unions to extort taxpayers.
Then you put teachers in charge of everything, but especially the classroom. The teachers select one of their own to fulfill whatever principal type duties are necessary. The teachers get together and collectively design their own curriculum. They submit this curriculum to the local school board for approval. Teachers that take on some of the administrative functions get paid more. The teachers collectively manage the school budget. I could go into more detail, but I hope you get the idea.....

You and I are barking up the same tree on some of this. Too many salaries that aren't associated with actually teaching... Definitely agree.
Unions. Blah. They killed Detroit and almost killed our automotive industry. Teachers, however, I have some sympathy for especially for the stuff they put up with and what they are paid, they're probably more in-line with your agenda than the administrators and the politicians are. That union has stood up against the battery of standardized tests and ridiculous dumbing down in the classroom associated with teaching those tests.. The kind of stuff that takes bright kids and makes them solidly mediocre. I'd have to look at it more.

I can get behind those suggestions more than "free society" and optional religion based education.

[equin]

A lot of good, interesting points. I have an 8 month old and want to make sure he gets a good education. So I find the comments in this thread interesting and informative.

As for paying taxes for schools even though I have no kids in school, I guess I'm in the minority on here. I actually don't mind paying them. The way I look at it is that I'm investing in my country's future by making sure our younger generation will be well educated and contribute to society and our country's future and well-being.

Of course, I realize that not all kids will take advantage of an education, and I'm also aware that despite 12 years of schooling many unfortunately end up with sub-par reading and math skills and are woefully ignorant of basic science, history, spelling and proper grammar. America's kids are quickly becoming the laughing stock of the rest of the developed world. That's what concerns me the most - that my tax dollars aren't aren't used as effectively and beneficially as intended so as to ensure America continues to lead in science, technology, medicine, business, etc.

I don't know what the solution is, but I don't think cutting taxes for folks who don't have kids in school will help any. Families who do have school-age children will then have to pay an exorbitant amount to educate their kids, if they can afford it at all. The system will probably then be more like it is in many parts of the developing 3rd world, where only the affluent kids, which are very few, will get an education while the majority will end up with a 6th grade reading level or less and even worse math, science and business skills. But I'm no education expert, so I could be wrong about that.

[Cedar Park Dad]

Part of why the US has had economic success (relative to other countries) is we have a high degree of educated people here. I don't attribute that education to a public school system, but it's part of an educational chain. And that chain needs to adapt and get better. We're already losing in Math and Science compared to other countries and long term, it will disadvantage us.

Sorry, you're just wrong. Apparently you don't work in a technical field with either scientists or engineers. I know and work with lots of Phd engineers and exactly one is American born. All the rest are from India, Pakistan, China, or the Middle East. We have a lot of people with easy to obtain and meaningless college degrees but that translates into ego enhancement, not educated people. We have to import Phds in the technical fields. And all the evidence shows a steady decline in educational quality across the board over the last 50 years. I've dealt with engineers from Mexico, educated in Mexico, that were far far better educated across the board, and even spoke better English, than most American college graduates I've me. I've met many people with college degrees, but very few of them are educated in any meaningful sense of the word.....particularly if they were liberal arts majors. When my son was attending UT he had story after story of how stupid his fellow students were, and UT should have the top 10% from Texas high schools.

Our economic success, which is soon about to end, is almost entirely the product of the fact that the dollar is the world's reserve currency. If it wasn't, we would already have had a major economic collapse.

We don't have an educated populace, we have a populace cheated out of an education, and deluded into believing that indoctrination constitutes education. Yes, the best and brightest always find a way, and they may well be better educated than ever, but that's irrelevant to this conversation. That has been and always will be the case in any system.

We didn't build 9,000 warheads, the greatest military in the history of mankind and be the only ones sending humans to the moon relying on imported PHDs from Mexico.

[cb1000rider]

That's what happens when we lower the standards so everybody is promoted to the next grade level based on time served, whether or not they learn what they were supposed to learn in their current grade level. I suppose it does prepare them for jobs where seniority is more important than competence. Like teaching in public schools.
No child left behind. Until their jobs are outsourced to Pakistan.

FML, as far as I can tell, in some jurisdictions it might be possible to promote kids through a few grade levels, maybe up to 3. There seems to be a battery of standardized tests that are hard requirements for promotion at some milestones.. Kids cannot be promoted if they fail at those tests. And they can't graduate. Those tests were at least partially designed to address the problem that you're talking about... They certainly don't address quality of education, but it does stop school systems from promoting and graduating kids that can't pass the basic standard tests.

[bayouhazard]

As a publc good, school vouchers make as much sense as giving homeowners vouchers to pay for their choice of neighborhood patrol.

[mojo84]

Please note, it doesn't involve a public school. http://google.com/producer/s/CBIwuvr_ohk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[MasterOfNone]

One thing that surprised me when I first left Florida is the number of small school districts, each with a school board, administration, and high-salary superintendents. In Florida, at least in our area, each county was a school district. Ours had 17 (I think) high schools and all the associated middle and elementary schools. It made everything more practical - maintenance, busing, capacity planning. All with one board and administration.

[mojo84]

Cost per student per state
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/educa ... -data.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Graduation rates per state
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/high- ... state.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[WildBill]

Cost per student per state
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/educa ... -data.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can't make any conclusions from this data about the quality of education.
New York and D.C. have the highest spending, but they also has the highest cost of living.