A Comment About Our Educational System

[jmra]

Mmm I love statistics. All the shart shows is the score. It doesn't show the number of test takers.

The percentage of student population taking the SAT has risen dramatically.

So, what you're saying is that the more students that take the test, the worse the scores are, so education is improving? Yeah, too bad that undermines your point and supports mine.

It does neither actually. Historically only the cream of the crop could go to college. Nowdays your average kid is trying to go to one.
To be reflective of an actual trend you would have to hold the population groups and makeup constant.

It's not just your average kids going to college, it's kids that barely graduate high school. Plenty of schools out there that will take anyone as long as somebody (most of the time us) is footing the bill.

[mojo84]

Mmm I love statistics. All the shart shows is the score. It doesn't show the number of test takers.

The percentage of student population taking the SAT has risen dramatically.

So, what you're saying is that the more students that take the test, the worse the scores are, so education is improving? Yeah, too bad that undermines your point and supports mine.

It does neither actually. Historically only the cream of the crop could go to college. Nowdays your average kid is trying to go to one.
To be reflective of an actual trend you would have to hold the population groups and makeup constant.

It's not just your average kids going to college, it's kids that barely graduate high school. Plenty of schools out there that will take anyone as long as somebody (most of the time us) is footing the bill.

Yep, and those kids take the SAT and ACT. If they barely graduated from high school, think how they scored on the tests. Not pretty.

[WildBill]

This thread has taken an interesting path.

It has evolved from teaching Latin to homeschooling to property taxes to bond issues to football stadiums to engineering degrees to salaries to SAT scores.

Is the measure of the success of an educational system the ability to produce graduates who can make the most money?

[MotherBear]

Is the measure of the success of an educational system the ability to produce graduates who can make the most money?

I'm going to have to dig through some old notebooks to find it, but somewhere I read something to the effect that a good education is one with which, if you were stranded on an island, you could recreate a culture. I feel like it was William Bennett, but Google isn't turning up anything so I'm not sure if I have the quote or the source right. I read it years ago, I think as a teenager, and it stuck with me. I don't know that I'd say that's the whole answer, but I think it's part of it.

Edit: Ok, found it. It was actually Harvey Bluedorn, and I was close: a good education is "one with which, if you were stranded on an island, you could reconstruct a culture." The reason I thought of William Bennett is because I also have one of his written down on the same subject: a good education is "one that enables you to enlarge your mind and save your soul."

[Ameer]

I have a high school graduate this year. I'd confidently put him up against any graduate from 50 or 100 years ago. Considering the academic and service scholarship offers he has received from universities from across this country, your generalization is way off base and the continued comments that all of today's graduates are imbeciles and dunces are quite offensive.

Let me ask those of you that think today's schools and students are so bad, how many of you took college courses during your high school years and graduated high school with almost 40 college credit hours?

It's wonderful that every student at your son's school is so accomplished. Really fantastic.

I had a very different experience. A significant minority of my high school graduating class had really poor maths and English skills. Maybe not surprising and maybe not a bad thing because the world still needs manual laborers. What's really disappointing is my college classmates in dire need of remedial math and English education.

There should be minimum standards before someone can attend college at taxpayer expense.

[mojo84]

I have a high school graduate this year. I'd confidently put him up against any graduate from 50 or 100 years ago. Considering the academic and service scholarship offers he has received from universities from across this country, your generalization is way off base and the continued comments that all of today's graduates are imbeciles and dunces are quite offensive.

Let me ask those of you that think today's schools and students are so bad, how many of you took college courses during your high school years and graduated high school with almost 40 college credit hours?

It's wonderful that every student at your son's school is so accomplished. Really fantastic.

I had a very different experience. A significant minority of my high school graduating class had really poor maths and English skills. Maybe not surprising and maybe not a bad thing because the world still needs manual laborers. What's really disappointing is my college classmates in dire need of remedial math and English education.

There should be minimum standards before someone can attend college at taxpayer expense.

From where in the world did this come? Please point me to where I said anything about every student at my son's school. Matter of fact, I said generalizations shouldn't be made.

Should your college increase acceptance standards?

[Ameer]

Should your college increase acceptance standards?

YES!

[WildBill]

It was actually Harvey Bluedorn, and I was close: a good education is "one with which, if you were stranded on an island, you could reconstruct a culture." The reason I thought of William Bennett is because I also have one of his written down on the same subject: a good education is "one that enables you to enlarge your mind and save your soul."

Thank you!

[chasfm11]

This thread has taken an interesting path.

It has evolved from teaching Latin to homeschooling to property taxes to bond issues to football stadiums to engineering degrees to salaries to SAT scores.

Is the measure of the success of an educational system the ability to produce graduates who can make the most money?

No but it is the measure of success of an educational system to produce people who can pay taxes. By that measure, we have a miserable failure. I'm only half joking.

[mojo84]

Actually, willing to work and pay taxes. Much of that falls on the parents and students.

[chasfm11]

Actually, willing to work and pay taxes. Much of that falls on the parents and students.

Perhaps. I spent time in various parts of Europe. It is a very interesting study of the willingness to work versus belief that work isn't necessary. I've been very critical of our education system because I believe it has as much of a stake in the the "Europeanization" of our collective thinking as the parents do. I cringe at what I've read in text books and what I've seen in homework.

I certainly agree that parents have a roll in whether or not their kids have a solid work ethic but the fact is that the schools spend more time with them than the parents and because they intend to do so, have a far greater influence on that thinking than they should have.

[mojo84]

Lost cause?

[cb1000rider]

It's not just your average kids going to college, it's kids that barely graduate high school. Plenty of schools out there that will take anyone as long as somebody (most of the time us) is footing the bill.

Looked at college admissions standards recently? You may catch a break if you're a minority or financially disadvantaged, but to get into a 4-year state school, they're not going to accept average students with average SAT scores. IF you've got a kid in the top 20% of his class and he doesn't do well above average on those SATs, getting into a state college like UT or A&M isn't going to be easy.

Nevermind paying for it...

Anyone can go to community college. That's absolutely true.

[mojo84]

Texas Tech, Texas State, UT North Texas, UTSA etc all have very low entrance/acceptance standards. UT and A&M are not the only state schools.

[jmra]

It's not just your average kids going to college, it's kids that barely graduate high school. Plenty of schools out there that will take anyone as long as somebody (most of the time us) is footing the bill.

Looked at college admissions standards recently? You may catch a break if you're a minority or financially disadvantaged, but to get into a 4-year state school, they're not going to accept average students with average SAT scores. IF you've got a kid in the top 20% of his class and he doesn't do well above average on those SATs, getting into a state college like UT or A&M isn't going to be easy.

Nevermind paying for it...

Anyone can go to community college. That's absolutely true.

UT and A&M are not the only schools in the country. The fact is there are more 4 year universities than you can shake a stick at. Have enough money or qualify for enough grants and you'll find one that will welcome you with open arms.