A Comment About Our Educational System

[jmra]

Texas Tech, Texas State, UT North Texas, UTSA etc all have very low entrance/acceptance standards. UT and A&M are not the only state schools.

you beat me to it.

[cb1000rider]

Mojo, I looked up UNT's:

http://www.unt.edu/admission/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As I read it, for typical highschool students who graduated from a accredited high school with a ranking system, to get admitted, they must be:
1) In the top 10% of their class
2) Or in the top 25% of their class, with a 950 SAT / 20 ACT
3) Or in the top 50% of their class, with a 1050 SAT / 23 ACT
4) Or be in the top 75% of their class with a 1180 SAT / 26 ACT

Average SAT scores for 2013 were:
Critical reading:496
Mathematics: 514
Writing: 488

I *think* the way they score it is: Math + (Reading+Writing)/2 = 1006 is the average score.. If I'm not right, someone correct me.

My take away:
1) Average kids can get into UNT, meaning kids that are "average rank" and "average SAT" score.
2) If you're below average (less than 50% class rank), you need an above average SAT/ACT to balance out.


I don't see that as "anyone" can go..... Want me to look up another one?

[mojo84]

Another one, Sul Ross. They will practically pay kids to go there.

[cb1000rider]

Another one, Sul Ross. They will practically pay kids to go there.

Sul Ross:
http://www.sulross.edu/page/2780/admiss ... t-freshman" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

1) You get to go if you're in the top half of your class. No testing required.
2) Lower half of your class, you need to do 920 or better on the SAT.

That's the lowest I've ever seen...

[mojo84]

Class rank and SAT aren't the only criteria.

[cb1000rider]

There is also a "to be reviewed" section. I'm sure that there are other criteria used to meet university admissions goals for diversity, etc. However, the more people that apply to these colleges, the less flexibility that the colleges have to grant admission for review - outside of those diversity goals.

[jmra]

Another one, Sul Ross. They will practically pay kids to go there.

Sul Ross:
http://www.sulross.edu/page/2780/admiss ... t-freshman" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

1) You get to go if you're in the top half of your class. No testing required.
2) Lower half of your class, you need to do 920 or better on the SAT.

That's the lowest I've ever seen...

You are posting the listed requirements for these colleges for guaranteed acceptance. They waive these requirements on a regular basis. Don't believe me? Go to any high school when the college recruiters are there. Show them you can get student loans or grants and all of a sudden those "requirements" turn into "soft guidelines". It happens every year.

[cb1000rider]

Show them you can get student loans or grants and all of a sudden those "requirements" turn into "soft guidelines". It happens every year.

Are you talking about for-profit universities?

Maybe I can agree with: "Almost all graduating students can find some college that will accept them".

Personally, I found college applications to be very competitive... And about the only way to get in was to meet automatic admissions standards. I didn't apply everywhere through. Shows the scope of my knowledge.

[jmra]

Show them you can get student loans or grants and all of a sudden those "requirements" turn into "soft guidelines". It happens every year.

Are you talking about for-profit universities?

Maybe I can agree with: "Almost all graduating students can find some college that will accept them".

Personally, I found college applications to be very competitive... And about the only way to get in was to meet automatic admissions standards. I didn't apply everywhere through. Shows the scope of my knowledge.

I'm talking about both private and public universities. If a high school graduate wants to go to a 4 year university, they can. End of story. It may not be one you would apply to, but there are a ton of them out there.
http://acceptu.com/2011/07/ten-great-co ... at-or-act/
Here's a list of colleges that don't even require you to take the SAT or ACT

Here's another link for 4 year universities that either do not require or deemphasize SAT or ACT scores
http://fairtest.org/university/optional

[mamabearCali]

You know what as long as every job I see paying more than 40k says "bachelors degree required" I think we had better have universities willing to take those of us who are average.

Y'all are fighting a battle that was lost 40 years ago. If the price of admission to most middle class jobs is going to be a Bachelors degree then we need to find more effective ways of obtaining the degree without uber levels of debt.

[anygunanywhere]

You know what as long as every job I see paying more than 40k says "bachelors degree required" I think we had better have universities willing to take those of us who are average.

Y'all are fighting a battle that was lost 40 years ago. If the price of admission to most middle class jobs is going to be a Bachelors degree then we need to find more effective ways of obtaining the degree without uber levels of debt.

Mrs Anygun has been a nurse for 40 years. SHe has her ADRN which she worked for in the early 1980s.

The hospital where she works was bought out by a large system. They told the nurses they were making the hospital a magna(?) program so everyone has to get their bachelor's degree. She told them "Okay". She is retiring with me on June 27th. No degree. Yay!

The expectation that everyone can get or needs a bachelors degree is unrealistic and is the same logic as zero tolerance.

Anygunanywhere

[VMI77]

When the now much easier test is taken by the top students the decline isn't as severe. When more students take the test, the scores get worse, indicating that the educational system is failing the majority of students. Top students do well in just about any environment because they're smart. And yes, the top top students are probably better at math than ever, though their knowledge outside the quantitative world is nothing to brag about.

VM.. I like statistics. And you instantly covered my main objection - which would have been that the test has changed dramatically in 60 years. The asserting that the test has gotten "easier"- is that yours or is it fairly well documented?

You're smart enough in statistics to know that a decline in average test score doesn't necessarily mean that the educational system is failing the majority of students. It could mean that more less-qualified students are taking the test and that the average shifts. It could mean that as an entrance requirement for college, people who couldn't go to college 50 years ago are taking the test, because colleges have a different entry criteria for those candidates. After all, for the sake of "diversity" we allow people with lower test scores in if they meet the right demographics. The shift could be demographics based... There is more than one knob on this one. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I'm just saying that the graph you've given doesn't speak to me as such because other things are in play.

From the looks of it, math is the one thing that we don't have to worry about, but I'm more inclined to go against the data and agree with your son.

There's probably more data out there, but of the data set I cited, this is the telling statistic as far as the increased number of students taking the test:

As evidence, it was presented that the number of pupils who scored above 600 on the verbal portion of the test had fallen from a peak of 112,530 in 1972 to 73,080 in 1993, a 36% backslide, despite the fact that the total number of test-takers had risen over 500,000

Even though 500,000 more students took the test, the number of those getting 600 or more on the verbal part of the exam still declined. That's just one data point but if fits with everything else. As far as the test getting easier, I base that on three things: 1) the content of the test.....the range of subjects and number of questions was reduced over time; 2) the type of answers.....i.e. it didn't start out being multiple choice, and multiple choice tests convey a guessing benefit; and 3) the additional length of time allotted to answer fewer questions.

[VMI77]

Mmm I love statistics. All the shart shows is the score. It doesn't show the number of test takers.

The percentage of student population taking the SAT has risen dramatically.

So, what you're saying is that the more students that take the test, the worse the scores are, so education is improving? Yeah, too bad that undermines your point and supports mine. When the now much easier test is taken by the top students the decline isn't as severe. When more students take the test, the scores get worse, indicating that the educational system is failing the majority of students. Top students do well in just about any environment because they're smart. And yes, the top top students are probably better at math than ever, though their knowledge outside the quantitative world is nothing to brag about.

My son is a math tutor. And he's not working with the children of poor families --the tutoring is fairly expensive. We were discussing the way math is taught in the public schools and it is absurd....and inconsistent to boot. They teach one screwed up method in middle school then expect these kids to understand the right method that they've never been taught, in high school, with other schools doing the reverse. Kids go from one school and find that what was right before is now wrong. The private schools in the area have started to adopt the Singapore method because Singapore produces the top scoring math students.

But hey, your kids did great, so never mind the rest of the kids.

What did the public school's admin and school board have to say when you discussed the Singapore Method with them?

I haven't discussed anything with the local school system. My kids have been past school age for a long time. While I participated in the local schools during those years, representing my company, I voted on the school system by withdrawing my children from it. This was directly due to the 1st grade classroom environment of my oldest son. The school/teacher was crushing his curiosity and desire to learn so I pulled him. After starting to homeschool him we continued with his younger brother, who never attended public or private school at all until he started college.

[VMI77]

I have used singapore math.....maybe it works for some, but for a dyslexic student it was death on toast.

If you want a good system for visual/kinetic learners (kids that are distracted and figity) I highly reccomend Math-u-see. We have had brilliant success with that program.

That's exactly why there should be no federal standard, and methods should be decided locally by the school and school board.

[VMI77]

Mmm I love statistics. All the shart shows is the score. It doesn't show the number of test takers.

The percentage of student population taking the SAT has risen dramatically.

So, what you're saying is that the more students that take the test, the worse the scores are, so education is improving? Yeah, too bad that undermines your point and supports mine.

It does neither actually. Historically only the cream of the crop could go to college. Nowdays your average kid is trying to go to one.
To be reflective of an actual trend you would have to hold the population groups and makeup constant.

Except you can't do that in real life, so you have to interpret the available data, like the fact that as 500,000 more students took the test, the actual number getting a verbal score above 600 still declined by 36%.