A Comment About Our Educational System

[mojo84]

The market is over saturated with lawyers already.

Do a comparison of how many lawyers there are per capita in the US and other countries. He could drive a truck in the oilfield or do dime other gainful work while he is looking for work in his chosen field. That would be more productive than being mad for not getting the job he wants.


Not sure where his statistics came from.

http://www.examiner.com/article/more-la ... n-soldiers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe you guys should be mad at his career counselor. This seems like the free market at work like it is supposed to.

[cb1000rider]

TSA, ugh.. I'm pretty sure that would drive me postal. How about an alternate career that respects his education? The military will give him officer status. It doesn't pay great, but you can pick which direction you head in, and if you do your 20 years - you can retire or find another career and boost your retirement income. That life long healthcare is probably worth more than the retirement pay.

Police officer - again, the academy's respect the degree. APD is well paid. I have a very intelligent friend who is a detective down there. They are always recruiting. It also lends itself to becoming part of the government.

Could go back to school... I think he was likely on the right track with work/study. Nuclear engineering doesn't have as many prospects as the other engineering branches. There are interesting blends of marketing and technology out of the business colleges. Focus on working a few internships.

The kid in law school - horrible market for attorneys right now... The attorneys that make it seem to get some basic experience and then roll the dice and try something on their own. I'm sure the debt is pretty high.

[jmra]

I'm talking about both private and public universities. If a high school graduate wants to go to a 4 year university, they can. End of story. It may not be one you would apply to, but there are a ton of them out there.

JMRA, I think what I disagree with is: "It's not just your average kids going to college, it's kids that barely graduate high school. "

Most colleges won't accept kids that barely graduate in the last quarter of their class. I agree you can find a for-profit 4-year to take them. Any community college will take them. Are there really state schools that accept the lowest ranked people that "barely graduated" ? I guess I don't know, but in the schools that I looked up, they don't meet entrance requirements and would need to get in by some other means. You're right -there are probably alternatives, but it sure doesn't look like getting into college with crappy class rank is easy.

State schools - less than half of their funding comes from tuition. Are there state schools that have lower than capacity enrollment? It looks like many schools in Texas are at record enrollment, so their selection process gets more selective, not less.

CB, getting these kids (especially the ones with minimum graduation plans) into 4 year universities has been a major push by public schools. The UTs and A&Ms won't take them but many other state schools will. Did you look at the links I provided? Give me a student that has graduated high school and I will find a fully accredited 4 year university within a days drive of DFW that will take them. I know because I see it happen with kids I've worked with every year.

[cb1000rider]

JMRA, I buy it, if you're working with those kids directly and that's your experience... It's just hard to see looking at the entry requirements.
I know that marginally educated students make it into college, but most of that seemed to be pay-for-profit schools that the entry requirement was $$$ or schools that were attempted to meet a diversity standard and allowed a lower bar for those students.

I assumed that white kids of reasonable-means parents who graduated in the lower half of their class and didn't have good SAT scores were looking at community college or nothing, maybe that's not the case. I won't be telling my kids.

I was pushed to do well on those SATs and class ranking. The colleges that I had experience with, the entry criteria were tough, and getting tougher every year as more and more students applied. I know that A&M didn't have a lot of room after meeting all the automatic-entry students, but A&M isn't everywhere.

[equin]

The market is over saturated with lawyers already.

Do a comparison of how many lawyers there are per capita in the US and other countries. He could drive a truck in the oilfield or do dime other gainful work while he is looking for work in his chosen field. That would be more productive than being mad for not getting the job he wants.


Not sure where his statistics came from.

http://www.examiner.com/article/more-la ... n-soldiers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe you guys should be mad at his career counselor. This seems like the free market at work like it is supposed to.

I agree completely. As a lawyer, I've advised many potential law students to seek an alternative career. I've been practicing law for over 20 years and have never seen the profession so saturated and so badly under-employed, with the exception of those with highly technical degrees like computer engineering who can go into patent law, which itself is highly competitive.

As for the military, that was one of the first places I applied out of law school and was unceremoniously rejected by every branch of the service. It was right at the end of the first Gulf War, and I was told numerous times that unless I graduated at the top of my class from Harvard or Yale, don't bother. I had since tried numerous times to get into the military and even the reserves until I reached the maximum age limit. That was back in the 90's and early 2000's, so maybe things have changed, but I doubt it considering the recent cuts to military due to our huge national debt. If your son can get in now, though, then that would be great considering the litigation experience he may gain from it.

[VMI77]

The market is over saturated with lawyers already.

Do a comparison of how many lawyers there are per capita in the US and other countries. He could drive a truck in the oilfield or do dime other gainful work while he is looking for work in his chosen field. That would be more productive than being mad for not getting the job he wants.


Not sure where his statistics came from.

http://www.examiner.com/article/more-la ... n-soldiers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe you guys should be mad at his career counselor. This seems like the free market at work like it is supposed to.

Actually, he hates law school and doesn't intend to be a lawyer. My comment was more about how these schools take money and in-debt students for years without providing anything of value in return --or maybe I should just say, their product is an over priced rip off. The top tier law schools market themselves as producing top lawyers and therefore the first to be employed and somewhat recession immune. He's only sticking with it because it's free and he's almost finished. He could probably go JAG if he wanted to use the degree, but if he was going to do that he could of had it easier at a lesser school. He may go teach in China....he speaks Chinese and loves it there.

[mamabearCali]

I think it is baloney too! Don't get me wrong. But my husband has basically been told get your degree or don't progress anymore in your career. So he is finishing his degree in criminal justice.....so that he can check off a box. It is ridiculous, it is baloney, but it is required. We are 33 so we can't retire anytime soon. So the box will be checked off and he can move on.

He is doing so for less than 3k. So it could be worse.

I've always said that a degree is a license that shows you're capable of learning and a little bit of self-disipline. I knew a lot more engineering and math is school than I've managed to retain these days..

Your husband is being penalized $3k for not checking off that box. Most people without degrees are being penalized a lot more, as they're not even allowed to interview for jobs that they're very capable of doing. I bet that was true in his case too.

I've worked at a few big companies where pay is directly related to educational check boxes and not necessarily related at all to performance. It's sorta silly.

The closer you can move to entrepreneurial businesses, I've found that it matters less. However, I'm going to strongly kick my child's butt towards getting a degree, as it affords such unfair advantages...

Oh no the degree is costing us 3k. His salary is 50-75k less per year than what it should be with his qualifications and a degree. So it is worth it. Still stinks.

[equin]

The market is over saturated with lawyers already.

Do a comparison of how many lawyers there are per capita in the US and other countries. He could drive a truck in the oilfield or do dime other gainful work while he is looking for work in his chosen field. That would be more productive than being mad for not getting the job he wants.


Not sure where his statistics came from.

http://www.examiner.com/article/more-la ... n-soldiers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe you guys should be mad at his career counselor. This seems like the free market at work like it is supposed to.

Actually, he hates law school and doesn't intend to be a lawyer. My comment was more about how these schools take money and in-debt students for years without providing anything of value in return --or maybe I should just say, their product is an over priced rip off. The top tier law schools market themselves as producing top lawyers and therefore the first to be employed and somewhat recession immune. He's only sticking with it because it's free and he's almost finished. He could probably go JAG if he wanted to use the degree, but if he was going to do that he could of had it easier at a lesser school. He may go teach in China....he speaks Chinese and loves it there.

I agree about how schools take the money while students end up with huge student loans and no way to pay them due to the lousy job market.

[VMI77]

TSA, ugh.. I'm pretty sure that would drive me postal. How about an alternate career that respects his education? The military will give him officer status. It doesn't pay great, but you can pick which direction you head in, and if you do your 20 years - you can retire or find another career and boost your retirement income. That life long healthcare is probably worth more than the retirement pay.

Police officer - again, the academy's respect the degree. APD is well paid. I have a very intelligent friend who is a detective down there. They are always recruiting. It also lends itself to becoming part of the government.

Could go back to school... I think he was likely on the right track with work/study. Nuclear engineering doesn't have as many prospects as the other engineering branches. There are interesting blends of marketing and technology out of the business colleges. Focus on working a few internships.

The kid in law school - horrible market for attorneys right now... The attorneys that make it seem to get some basic experience and then roll the dice and try something on their own. I'm sure the debt is pretty high.

His law school is free, he's on full scholarship with a stipend. He could go JAG or FBI. He could go CIA as he speaks Chinese and Japanese. He hates Chicago and he doesn't much care for law school. His gripe is that if he wanted a less compensated law position he could have taken a scholarship from UT, lived with better weather and more attractive females, and had an easier time in school.

The older one already went to the academy. Afterwards he decided to go back to college (before the academy he had dropped out of A&M). TSA would only be temporary. Once you're in you have access to government positions that aren't available to the general public. Since school hasn't helped him, he already thinks more school is a waste of time and money.

[mojo84]

Buyer beware, don't take the student loans in the first place. Or, at least minimize the loans up front. Starting to sound like the people whining about the mortgage crisis. People were taking out loans they couldn't afford and then turning around blaming the mortgage companies. It was the fault of the lenders and borrowers.

All this has headed in an interesting direction. At first, the public schools were vast wastelands producing nothing idiots and morons. Now were are complaining kids got "free degrees" and are mad because they can't get a job back to colleges charging people to educate them and the kids can't get the job in which they are entitled. WOW!

What happened to the self sufficient liberty minded people that think "free" public education is nothing but socialist indoctrination and redistribution? News flash, that "free" degree was paid for by someone.

[VMI77]

Buyer beware, don't take the student loans in the first place. Or, at least minimize the loans up front. Starting to sound like the people whining about the mortgage crisis. People were taking out loans they couldn't afford and then turning around blaming the mortgage companies. It was the fault of the lenders and borrowers.

All this has headed in an interesting direction. At first, the public schools were vast wastelands producing nothing idiots and morons. Now were are complaining kids got "free degrees" and are mad because they can't get a job back to colleges charging people to educate them and the kids can't get the job in which they are entitled. WOW!

What happened to the self sufficient liberty minded people that think "free" public education is nothing but socialist indoctrination and redistribution? News flash, that "free" degree was paid for by someone.

Newsflash for you. Yes, it was. The University of Chicago is a private university. His free degree was paid for by David Rubinstein, CEO of the Carlyle Group --a private individual who gave $20 million dollars of his own money to his alma matter in order to attract the best and brightest and compete with Harvard and Yale. So much for your assumptions.

[mojo84]

Therefore it wasn't "FREE". Somebody paid for it. It was at no cost to you or him but it wasn't "FREE".

I am still dismayed at the entitlement attitude. He got a "free" law degree from a top law school and can't get a job at the moment. If the country and market doesn't support more lawyers, that is part of capitalism and the free market working like it should. Maybe a petroleum engineering degree for the best and brightest might have been a better option.

The topic was about the public education system and how bad it is and how it should be dismantled so that everyone could be free to go their own way for an education. We ended up with you telling us your son is mad because he got a "free" law degree from a top private law school and he can't get a job. I think your and his concerns should be more focused towards career choice and the economy.

Nothing meant as a disrespect toward Charles or any other lawyer on the forum but I think the fewer attorneys in the country would be a good thing. If he didn't want to be a lawyer, maybe another degree choice was in order. Choosing to pursue a law degree just because it was "free" may have not been the best basis to base a career decision.

JMHO no offense intended.

[VMI77]

Therefore it wasn't "FREE". Somebody paid for it. It was at no cost to you or him but it wasn't "FREE".

I am still dismayed at the entitlement attitude. He got a "free" law degree from a top law school and can't get a job at the moment. If the country and market doesn't support more lawyers, that is part of capitalism and the free market working like it should. Maybe a petroleum engineering degree for the best and brightest might have been a better option.

The topic was about the public education system and how bad it is and how it should be dismantled so that everyone could be free to go their own way for an education. We ended up with you telling us your son is mad because he got a "free" law degree from a top private law school and he can't get a job. I think your and his concerns should be more focused towards career choice and the economy.

Nothing meant as a disrespect toward Charles or any other lawyer on the forum but I think the fewer attorneys in the country would be a good thing. If he didn't want to be a lawyer, maybe another degree choice was in order. Choosing to pursue a law degree just because it was "free" may have not been the best basis to base a career decision.

JMHO no offense intended.

Now you're just quibbling about what "free" means. It's free to him, and it was freely given to him. No taxpayer funding involved. You made a decision to have children and you expect someone else to share in the cost of educating them. You can talk about liberty all you want, but you're quite happy with socialism when it benefits you. The fact is, your income is subsidized by tax dollars to the extent you're not bearing the full cost of your children's education. It's funny to hear someone who is being subsidized by tax dollars, taken from others by government force, just for existing and having children, talk about the "entitlement mentality" of someone who earned by merit a scholarship freely provided by a private individual at a private university.

[cb1000rider]

I agree about how schools take the money while students end up with huge student loans and no way to pay them due to the lousy job market.

It's not just law schools. The online and for-profit university system has a billion dollar advertising spend. They've been slowed down recently, but they'll take all students as long as they can foot the bill. And they'll take students who can qualify for financing to foot the bill... Not all students are smart enough to look at post-graduation employment rates or the salaries associated after graduation versus debt...

[mojo84]

Therefore it wasn't "FREE". Somebody paid for it. It was at no cost to you or him but it wasn't "FREE".

I am still dismayed at the entitlement attitude. He got a "free" law degree from a top law school and can't get a job at the moment. If the country and market doesn't support more lawyers, that is part of capitalism and the free market working like it should. Maybe a petroleum engineering degree for the best and brightest might have been a better option.

The topic was about the public education system and how bad it is and how it should be dismantled so that everyone could be free to go their own way for an education. We ended up with you telling us your son is mad because he got a "free" law degree from a top private law school and he can't get a job. I think your and his concerns should be more focused towards career choice and the economy.

Nothing meant as a disrespect toward Charles or any other lawyer on the forum but I think the fewer attorneys in the country would be a good thing. If he didn't want to be a lawyer, maybe another degree choice was in order. Choosing to pursue a law degree just because it was "free" may have not been the best basis to base a career decision.

JMHO no offense intended.

Now you're just quibbling about what "free" means. It's free to him, and it was freely given to him. No taxpayer funding involved. You made a decision to have children and you expect someone else to share in the cost of educating them. You can talk about liberty all you want, but you're quite happy with socialism when it benefits you. The fact is, your income is subsidized by tax dollars to the extent you're not bearing the full cost of your children's education. It's funny to hear someone who is being subsidized by tax dollars, taken from others by government force, just for existing and having children, talk about the "entitlement mentality" of someone who earned by merit a scholarship freely provided by a private individual at a private university.

No I'm not. I'm just calling you on you trying to have it both ways.

My son too is going to attend a private university on scholarship and will have to pay very little for it himself as he is getting scholarships. He also chose a field where there is sufficient demand and we expect he will have a job when he graduates. Oops, he already has several internship offers in his chosen field. Even if he didn't, he wouldn't be whining about how he is being robbed by the system. He would go find an available job and pay his own way until he found one in his chosen field.

As far as our current public education system, which is by the way the subject of this topic, it needs reform and improvement. Until you, I or someone comes up with a better system that will work better for more people and get the federal government out of it, I'll continue to pay my share of the school taxes which I have paid before, during and will continue to pay without whining.

There are many things which we have to all contribute to that we may or may not benefit from. There is nothing pure in this world. Not even telling everyone education is a now an everyone on their own system.

I wish your son the best in finding a job and hope he can overcome his anger.