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frankie_the_yankee wrote:

Maybe I'm preparing myself too much, maybe I'm training too much. Unholstering and getting into a low ready was purely instinctive, I didn't have time to think, I've got the move so committed to muscle memory that it happened without me thinking about it. That's a bad thing?

IMHO, yes.

Why?

Cipher wrote:Define "tender".

Tender means too young to fend for himself or herself under everyday conditions, usually younger than 7 or so. It varies with the individual child.

I'm just asking questions. My only advice is to think of every aspect of a situation.

- Jim

Cipher wrote:

frankie_the_yankee wrote:

Maybe I'm preparing myself too much, maybe I'm training too much. Unholstering and getting into a low ready was purely instinctive, I didn't have time to think, I've got the move so committed to muscle memory that it happened without me thinking about it. That's a bad thing?

IMHO, yes.

Why?

I don't think one should ever draw a gun on someone "without thinking about it."

Maybe in a war zone it would be different.

I'm not saying that you should put your chin in your hand and hunker down like Rodin's "Thinker" for 10 minutes or anything. But the idea of drawing a gun on someone "instinctively" just seems a bit off to me.

Like I said, just my opinion.

Cipher wrote:

frankie_the_yankee wrote:

Maybe I'm preparing myself too much, maybe I'm training too much. Unholstering and getting into a low ready was purely instinctive, I didn't have time to think, I've got the move so committed to muscle memory that it happened without me thinking about it. That's a bad thing?

IMHO, yes.

Why?

Training without context?

And I am interested in all of your training. I like to train, and am always looking for more schools to do that. What schools have you been to?

txinvestigator wrote:Training without context?

And I am interested in all of your training. I like to train, and am always looking for more schools to do that. What schools have you been to?

Other than Uncle Sam's - none. I kind of get the idea that this is a loaded question. As of late it seems this board is full of doubters, your question, as posed, is very degrading.

I do not think it takes formal training to teach yourself how to draw, I do that by practicing at the range and against a white wall in my house (unloaded, ammunition in another room). I also "train" (or I can use practice if you'd like) with my cousin (LEO) and brother (LEO) with Airsoft pistols in scenarios we make up. However, based on the wording of your question, it seems you are more interested in formal training, and like I said, except for being taught how to shoot (and clear a building, and use cover, and move with the weapon at low ready, etc, etc, etc) from my 8 years in the service (Airborne Infantry) I have none. I was always told I would never be a computer programmer since I do not have a college education (nor do I have a High School Diploma), yet here I am.

Since you mentioned it, is there any real FORMAL training for preparation? Sure, there are courses and events you can participate in to teach you how to shoot, reload, find and use cover, but I've never seen a course dedicated to reacting to a threat.

I gather from your post and your reasoning behind stating that me instinctively drawing that you would rather wait to see who's behind the door. It's been proven time and time again that 21 feet is too close, I was well within 21 feet and, like I said above, had it been a BG there would've been no time for me to react, leaving just my wife between the BG and whatever may have happened to my daughter. Had I been in the living room or further from the door I more than likely wouldn't have drawn, but being as close as I was I knew there was a REAL POSSIBILITY of danger, so I drew.

Training without context - is there any such thing as training with context (other than creating and acting out scenarios)? To me, that's real life. Now, since I do not have constant threats I do what I can to simulate threats, whether it be a situation in my head or a situation where I have a "real" BG with a fake gun (Airsoft) I can get my training in as real of a context as it can get. I strongly believe that during "fight or flight" muscle memory is your biggest ally since you aren't thinking clearly. Since I've taken Martial Arts training for so long I understand the concept of training until something does get committed to muscle memory. I think I've successfully run the "draw and prepare" drill enough times to have it nailed down - and what happened this weekend proved that.

And, yes, I've run over scenarios where the door busted open, and I reacted pretty much like I trained - stop, unholster, prepare to defend.

txinvestigator wrote: I don't think one should ever draw a gun on someone "without thinking about it."

Maybe "without thinking" was the wrong thing to say. To a degree I thought, I thought "oh 'poo'", and, again, since I perceived a threat my training kicked in and instinct took over. Again, since I always train to go low ready there was no real danger of anyone getting shot, regardless of what my MIL thought. I did not draw simply because the door opened, I drew because I genuinely thought somebody BAD was coming through the door. I guess your stance is to wait until you get stabbed with the knife, not react to the threat of the knife being displayed.

Again, I didn't draw on anybody, I prepared for what I thought was a very bad situation, the gun wasn't pointed at anyone. My thought process wasn't "Hey, the door is opening, I wonder who's behind it", it was more like "OH @#$%!@#$%*!@#$)".

The situation as it unfolded was "safe", the big bad wolf wasn't trying to blow my door down. HOWEVER, had it been somebody hell bent on doing whatever he wanted to me and my family what I did and how I reacted may very well have saved my and/or my family's lives. I will not apologize for that to anybody (including my in-laws). That's akin to asking someone to apologize for aceing their midterms.

In closing, this thread seems to have taken a direction I wouldn't have thought possible. I get getting "slammed" for having the door unlocked or creating an environment where people feel free to enter my house willy nilly, I see the potential issues there and will be addressing those, and I admit my faults in creating those problems. I do not understand the issue with me reacting the way I did. I will say it over and over - I GENUINELY THOUGHT, GIVEN THE INFORMATION I HAD AT THE TIME, THAT SOMEBODY BAD WAS COMING THROUGH MY DOOR.

You did fine. No one was hurt.

With kids of any age, my youngest is 10 and the rest are teenagers, it is difficult to get them to lock the doors. I would suggest you do the best you can to keep the doors locked but it can be a problem. Carrying 24/7 is certainly reasonable whether or not you lock the doors, whether or not you live in a good neighbor hood. And whether or not you lock the doors you need to be ready if someone barges in. I would say you were ready but at the same time did not go any farther than you had to in order to be in a position to protect your family.

Cipher wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:Training without context?

And I am interested in all of your training. I like to train, and am always looking for more schools to do that. What schools have you been to?

Other than Uncle Sam's - none. I kind of get the idea that this is a loaded question. As of late it seems this board is full of doubters, your question, as posed, is very degrading.

Really? You boasted of your prowess and instinct, I'm just curious. No offense intended, but that you felt "degraded" gives me some interesting insight.

always told I would never be a computer programmer since I do not have a college education (nor do I have a High School Diploma), yet here I am.

Here you are where? I think I missed something.

I gather from your post and your reasoning behind stating that me instinctively drawing that you would rather wait to see who's behind the door.

Umm, what?

It's been proven time and time again that 21 feet is too close,

Too close for what? What specifically is 21 feet too close for?

Training without context - is there any such thing as training with context (other than creating and acting out scenarios)?

Of course there is.

You asked our opinion, don't get upset when we don't agree with you.

Bottom line is; all of your martial arts and gun training 'instincts' 'muscle memory' or whatever you call it caused you to draw down on family. Personally I would re-think things. You are free to ignore me.

I think I will.

I didn't draw down on family, I drew down on a threat. If you can't discern the difference then I doubt you are one to be conducting CHL classes.

I'm not upset in the least that you disagree, I've taken everything everyone has said to heart and openly admit I made a mistake or two. You, on the other hand, are asking leading questions and attempting to degrade and downplay whatever means and methods I may use to prepare myself for the day I have to defend myself and/or my family. That I do have a problem with, and, if as a CHL instructor, you can't see the need to prepare to defend oneself, then I think you might want to consider a career change.

Again, I didn't draw on family, I drew on someone flinging my door open, sorry you can't see the difference.

llwatson wrote:

Xander wrote:If he has to say anything further to her about it, my suggestion would be that he apologize for creating the situation by leaving the door unlocked, and explain that he'll be keeping the door locked in future so that it won't happen again.

Good answer!

Yeah, and I can bet money someone is not going to open the door anymore themselves in the future...Locked or unlocked...Front or back...

Cipher wrote:[Define "tender". It is ok for my younger kids to play in the front as long as an adult is out with them OR my oldest daughter (9) is with them OR they play in visible sight of the office window and front storm door. Of course, these rules are going to change since the recent events - NOTE I only have my two oldest daughters every-other weekend, I haven't explained the new rules to them yet, but it's coming.[/list]

However, it's still pretty difficult to get my 9yo to remember to close the door. I think that is going to be more challenging to get her to understand then my MIL.

Five-year-old Samantha Runnion of California was abducted from her front yard. She was playing with a friend. Her grandmother was in the front of the house monitoring them periodically through a kitchen window. The man that discovered the little girl's body was so shaken by what was done to her that he begged the dispatcher not to make him stay near the scene.

A nine-year-old child really isn't a good watchdog. She may be a sweet girl showing lots of patience to younger siblings, but she can't protect them and she can't protect herself. Does your backyard have swingsets, etc. for them? Encourage them to play in the backyard when you can't be outside with them.

ETA: +1 on the electic door locks. Also, if you teach children to lock doors when they're young, it becomes a habit that they carry into adulthood.

Venus Pax wrote:

Cipher wrote:[Define "tender". It is ok for my younger kids to play in the front as long as an adult is out with them OR my oldest daughter (9) is with them OR they play in visible sight of the office window and front storm door. Of course, these rules are going to change since the recent events - NOTE I only have my two oldest daughters every-other weekend, I haven't explained the new rules to them yet, but it's coming.[/list]

However, it's still pretty difficult to get my 9yo to remember to close the door. I think that is going to be more challenging to get her to understand then my MIL.

Five-year-old Samantha Runnion of California was abducted from her front yard. She was playing with a friend. Her grandmother was in the front of the house monitoring them periodically through a kitchen window. The man that discovered the little girl's body was so shaken by what was done to her that he begged the dispatcher not to make him stay near the scene.

A nine-year-old child really isn't a good watchdog. She may be a sweet girl showing lots of patience to younger siblings, but she can't protect them and she can't protect herself. Does your backyard have swingsets, etc. for them? Encourage them to play in the backyard when you can't be outside with them.

ETA: +1 on the electic door locks. Also, if you teach children to lock doors when they're young, it becomes a habit that they carry into adulthood.

Venus Pax wrote:Five-year-old Samantha Runnion of California was abducted from her front yard. She was playing with a friend. Her grandmother was in the front of the house monitoring them periodically through a kitchen window. The man that discovered the little girl's body was so shaken by what was done to her that he begged the dispatcher not to make him stay near the scene.

A nine-year-old child really isn't a good watchdog. She may be a sweet girl showing lots of patience to younger siblings, but she can't protect them and she can't protect herself. Does your backyard have swingsets, etc. for them? Encourage them to play in the backyard when you can't be outside with them.

ETA: +1 on the electic door locks. Also, if you teach children to lock doors when they're young, it becomes a habit that they carry into adulthood.

Point taken.

The only problem with the backyard is that it's kind of "owned" by our lab. Anything that hit the ground back there is his "property". I will give this serious thought though.

Cipher wrote:
I didn't draw down on family, I drew down on a threat.

You drew down on something that you briefly thought might be a threat that turned out to be family.

Nobody's slamming you here. You asked for opinions. You're getting them.

In my opinion, in the situation as you described it, you were too quick to draw.

If someone was at my door knocking and saying, "Hello. Hello.", and then they open the (unlocked) door, that does not fit my profile of a "threat". I would not feel a need to draw in that situation. Maybe there's a risk there. I'll accept it.

And look at what happened! You ended up drawing down on your inlaws for Pete's sake. Think about what it must have looked like from their point of view.

There's all kinds of training. You can train in weapon presentation, fast and accurate shooting, how to shoot, clearing rooms, using cover, etc.

And you can also train to recognize situations where it is appropriate to draw and shoot (or not), and those where it is not appropriate to draw or shoot.

What I see here is a situation that you misidentified as a threat. Possibly with enough of the right kind of training your threat recognition skills could be improved.

Keep in mind that if you misidentify a threat on the street and draw down on someone when you shouldn't, you could end up facing criminal charges. This is why threat identification is an important thing for people with CHL's to be knowledgeable at.

None of this is intended as any kind of slam. I'm just stating my opinion and advice. You're free to agree or not, and to take it or not.

And I do not agree with those who say you did "fine". Drawing on your MIL is not "fine" unless she was trying to break down your door with a baseball bat.

Finally, let me express my appreciation for your service to our country.

frankie_the_yankee wrote:Nobody's slamming you here. You asked for opinions. You're getting them.

And most of those opinions are slamming him, for any combination of things: "you drew on your in-laws, so you should apologize"/"should have kept the door locked, so it's your fault"/"your in-laws have a habit of just walking in, so it's your fault"/"your kids left the door unlocked, so it's your fault"/"your kids should be playing in back, not in front, so it's your fault". Ad nauseum.

In my opinion, in the situation as you described it, you were too quick to draw.

If someone was at my door knocking and saying, "Hello. Hello.", and then they open the (unlocked) door, that does not fit my profile of a "threat". I would not feel a need to draw in that situation.

The situation as he described it is not what you just described. He said they pounded on the door, yelling, then the door flew open. Quite a bit different from easing the door open a crack and asking, "Hellooooo! Anyone home?"

And look at what happened! You ended up drawing down on your inlaws for Pete's sake. Think about what it must have looked like from their point of view.

From all indications, from their point of view he assaulted them with a deadly weapon and should apologize, but the idea that they should hesitate to burst through a door unannounced and unexpected is just plain silly.

What I see here is a situation that you misidentified as a threat. Possibly with enough of the right kind of training your threat recognition skills could be improved.

Yeah, that's the ticket! With enough training, he could develop the omniscience and x-ray vision to know who's bursting uninvited through a door 10 feet away.

As I've read this thread, I've thought that most of us ("us", including me) could not have had the gun clear before recognizing the in-laws. It's easy to stop the draw if you haven't even started it. Not sure that justifies criticizing someone who is faster.

Cipher: lock your doors. Everyone else: quit your airs of superiority.