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Get an XD. 9mm is fine.

Get some training.

Go to the gym.

Learn to be aware of your surroundings.

Define in your mind what your use of force triggers are by reading this board and others. Read the use of force stories on this board and others.

isa268 wrote:my point was the 1911 is a good gun. it has 7-8rds of .45acp, is easy to conceal and was designed by God. :) you can find Springer Mil-specs and GI models for $550 or LESS if you look. i think that meets all the OP requirements.

k6gixx was selling a 1911 package with concealed carry holsters and ammo for $450.

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... 20&t=20953

Excaliber wrote:Yes, the 1911 has been around for 100 years, and no, no one's come up with anything better. If you have doubts, check out what's in the holsters of our special forces troops and SWAT teams, who carry only the proven best there is.
!

Last I checked, H&Ks and Berettas were most common among SOF troops.

Joe CHL needs something more idiot proof and this is why the Glock and XD are preferred. They are point and shoot weapons and they are very, very reliable.

Keep in mind that most encounters will occur within 15 feet with just a few seconds of warning - its not a military operation with a team or hostages to rescue.

Your weapon needs to work and be accessible even if you are knocked on your back and ground fighting with little light.

A glock or XD carried AIWB meets these requirements. You do not need a holster for an XD AIWB, but you do want one for a glock.

The big problem with the 1911 is the thumb safety. I've seen it bobbled in high-stress situations. Most people will not train to the level they need to use the pistol effectively AND most people will not be in a stack or a team where the safety is needed to prevent killing your buddy. Its even more problematic when going to the off-hand for the safety.

austin wrote:

Excaliber wrote:Yes, the 1911 has been around for 100 years, and no, no one's come up with anything better. If you have doubts, check out what's in the holsters of our special forces troops and SWAT teams, who carry only the proven best there is.
!

Last I checked, H&Ks and Berettas were most common among SOF troops.

Joe CHL needs something more idiot proof and this is why the Glock and XD are preferred. They are point and shoot weapons and they are very, very reliable.

Keep in mind that most encounters will occur within 15 feet with just a few seconds of warning - its not a military operation with a team or hostages to rescue.

Your weapon needs to work and be accessible even if you are knocked on your back and ground fighting with little light.

A glock or XD carried AIWB meets these requirements. You do not need a holster for an XD AIWB, but you do want one for a glock.

The big problem with the 1911 is the thumb safety. I've seen it bobbled in high-stress situations. Most people will not train to the level they need to use the pistol effectively AND most people will not be in a stack or a team where the safety is needed to prevent killing your buddy. Its even more problematic when going to the off-hand for the safety.

I would agree that the 1911 is a weapon for the dedicated shootist who will put in the constant training effort it requires to remain proficient with it. In that context, it is unparalleled. It is not a good choice for the "carry every once in a while, go to the range twice a year" CHL holder.

The primary safety is where you point the muzzle and where you keep your trigger finger when you're not trying to shoot. Gadgets on the gun are secondary.

I also agree that a "point and shoot" solution is better for most folks who are not willing to immerse themselves in the shooting skills.

I would strongly advise against carrying any gun without a holster for reasons detailed in other posts on this forum, even if it is equipped with a grip safety like the XD (which I also own and like a lot).

Excaliber wrote: The primary safety is where you point the muzzle and where you keep your trigger finger when you're not trying to shoot. Gadgets on the gun are secondary.

I also agree that a "point and shoot" solution is better for most folks who are not willing to immerse themselves in the shooting skills.

I would strongly advise against carrying any gun without a holster for reasons detailed in other posts on this forum, even if it is equipped with a grip safety like the XD (which I also own and like a lot).

A manual safety is required when working with a team because the risk of getting an ND due to physical contact during chaotic moments. The point man can have his safety off, but the others must be engaged. Fingers can be pressed into triggers during bumps as well as gear and other objects. I've seen it and done it.

Having really good point shooting skills and a draw stroke from any aspect is far more valuable by any magnitude over being able to hit a target at 25 yards. If you work on any skill, the fast draw to first shot/first hit in the 1-15 feet range is the most important. In maybe 1/100% of the cases is being able to shoot past 25 yards important. Airsoft is the way to get this skill down at home.

Holsters are not safety devices. They exist to hold the pistol. How you hold the pistol depends on your circumstances.

The fact that the trigger is protected from contact does not mean that the holster itself when used does not introduce some risk. Some retention holsters are notoriously unsafe.

Furthermore, Glocks and XDs have ND'd when returned to the holster due to clothing and fingers getting inside the trigger guard.

One reason why AIWB is safer than OWB is that its harder for clothing to get in the way of a reholster or re-panting versus OWB because the area is easily seen and clothing is more easily cleared.

There is a slight speed advantage with a holster when AIWB because the grip can be made on the pistol quicker, BUT the finger has much greater chance of entering the trigger guard on the upwards draw because the fingers are still in motion and not flattened when the grip is obtained.

With AIWB no holster, you MUST flatten the fingers along your pants leg to get a proper grip before the draw. This makes it safer than using a holster on the draw.

AIWB no holster is the most concealed of all fast-draw options. Its also the most comfortable and the easiest to do.

There are numerous cases where AIWB no holster has escaped close searches of good guys by criminals which allowed the GG to then win the fight.

Its not for everyone, but if you are in good shape and want the fastest draw with the greatest concealment, it cannot be beat.

The Taurus 145 with night sights should be under $500. Good all around pistol.
Personally, I think of pistols like tools for varying uses. I may carry half a dozen different calibers and frame sizes in a month. If I recommended one, it would just be a place to start.

austin wrote:

Excaliber wrote: The primary safety is where you point the muzzle and where you keep your trigger finger when you're not trying to shoot. Gadgets on the gun are secondary.

I also agree that a "point and shoot" solution is better for most folks who are not willing to immerse themselves in the shooting skills.

I would strongly advise against carrying any gun without a holster for reasons detailed in other posts on this forum, even if it is equipped with a grip safety like the XD (which I also own and like a lot).

A manual safety is required when working with a team because the risk of getting an ND due to physical contact during chaotic moments. The point man can have his safety off, but the others must be engaged. Fingers can be pressed into triggers during bumps as well as gear and other objects. I've seen it and done it.

Having really good point shooting skills and a draw stroke from any aspect is far more valuable by any magnitude over being able to hit a target at 25 yards. If you work on any skill, the fast draw to first shot/first hit in the 1-15 feet range is the most important. In maybe 1/100% of the cases is being able to shoot past 25 yards important. Airsoft is the way to get this skill down at home.

Holsters are not safety devices. They exist to hold the pistol. How you hold the pistol depends on your circumstances.

The fact that the trigger is protected from contact does not mean that the holster itself when used does not introduce some risk. Some retention holsters are notoriously unsafe.

Furthermore, Glocks and XDs have ND'd when returned to the holster due to clothing and fingers getting inside the trigger guard.

One reason why AIWB is safer than OWB is that its harder for clothing to get in the way of a reholster or re-panting versus OWB because the area is easily seen and clothing is more easily cleared.

There is a slight speed advantage with a holster when AIWB because the grip can be made on the pistol quicker, BUT the finger has much greater chance of entering the trigger guard on the upwards draw because the fingers are still in motion and not flattened when the grip is obtained.

With AIWB no holster, you MUST flatten the fingers along your pants leg to get a proper grip before the draw. This makes it safer than using a holster on the draw.

AIWB no holster is the most concealed of all fast-draw options. Its also the most comfortable and the easiest to do.

There are numerous cases where AIWB no holster has escaped close searches of good guys by criminals which allowed the GG to then win the fight.

Its not for everyone, but if you are in good shape and want the fastest draw with the greatest concealment, it cannot be beat.

AIWB no holster does provide good concealment, but it's also the least stable, least retentive, and most dangerous method of carry due to the exposed trigger guard, as many incidents detailed elsewhere on this forum have shown.

I used it early in my law enforcement career and ended up rejecting it as being on the wrong side of a risk / benefit analysis for me, but I can't say that it doesn't have its place in special circumstances for highly experienced shooters whose tactical needs in a given situation may demand holsterless carry (e.g., certain types of undercover work).

austin wrote:Get an XD. 9mm is fine.

Get some training.

Go to the gym.

Learn to be aware of your surroundings.

Define in your mind what your use of force triggers are by reading this board and others. Read the use of force stories on this board and others.

While I appreciate the banter; however I am no kid looking for some peace-of-mind pistol. I have been taught firearm safety since I was about eight years old and continue to get educated about firearms. It just been some time since shooting at river bottom and the lease regularly.

Even though I am very aware of my surroundings this alone does not keep a person from getting surprised. I am 6'2" 195lb and chest is bigger than my waist (for now). This has helped me scare off an approaching stranger a few times. But when a old beat-up truck breaks hard behind your vehicle while your getting in your vehicle at a parking lot leaving you boxed-in all the advantage is the stranger's! My family was with me at this time and as they hurried into the car I headed the guy off as he was getting out. I think that scared him some and just started asking for money. I gave a few bucks to him watched him leave the lot. My wife was angry at me for the money but I'd rather lose money than esculate the situation by being combative to the guy. He was very jittery (I have my suspicians as to why) and also had towel covering something right next to his lap in the truck, yes I was very close to him..too close!

As for a defensive firearm I would perfer something is carry friendly, would not snag on any clothing if needed, able to shoot at point of aim (how I was first taught) and reliable. Basicaly...I look at it as a tool; needs to be clean functional user friendly all the time. A CCW is a tool for self defense not a sniper weapon for the BG's a hundred yards away.

As I will undoubtly get more re-familiarized with shooting I will pick up more delicate firearms that will be fun to shoot at the range. However at this point I'm looking for a good tool. Thus my original question, for CCW what would you do after having some carry expierence?

Sorry for the rant...it's late.

You need to create a decision tree that leads to a satisfactory solution for you.

1. Single-action or double-action. Pick one. Stick with it.

2. Size. You are husky and not obese, so you should have no trouble concealing anything.

3. Reliability. Literally millions of words have been written about the reliability of all the models of handguns available.

4. Accessories. Night sights and lasers are worth a look. I am not qualified to make a recommendation in that direction.

5. Holster and belt.

Most modern handguns have snag-free profiles. Sharp hammers are a thing of the past. You can choose many hammerless models, but conventional pistols and revolvers are designed for concealed carry and quick draw.

As I said in my first response, the market provides almost every option that a person could want. What I think works for me may not work for you. I would feel terrible if I told you to buy X and it did not work for you.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:You need to create a decision tree that leads to a satisfactory solution for you.

1. Single-action or double-action. Pick one. Stick with it.

I think you left out SA/DA. Your advice to stick with one is excellent though.

Liberty wrote:

seamusTX wrote:You need to create a decision tree that leads to a satisfactory solution for you.

1. Single-action or double-action. Pick one. Stick with it.

I think you left out SA/DA. Your advice to stick with one is excellent though.

SA/DA is a viable option for some (e.g. Sig), but is harder to learn to use in rapid fire self defense scenarios. Those of us who had to train officers to use SA/DA pistols are well familiar with this. Although dedicated shooters can overcome the added complexity and shoot as well as anyone else with the SA/DA gun, I'd go with SeausTx's recommendation on this one.

All of my own guns are either DA or SA (counting Glock as DA. Even though it's a cross between DA and SA, the trigger pull is the same each time).

Extra complexity requires extra training and maintenance.

Simple is good when the chips are down - fewer things to think about and less to go wrong.

Excaliber wrote:

Liberty wrote:

seamusTX wrote:You need to create a decision tree that leads to a satisfactory solution for you.

1. Single-action or double-action. Pick one. Stick with it.

I think you left out SA/DA. Your advice to stick with one is excellent though.

SA/DA is a viable option for some (e.g. Sig), but is harder to learn to use in rapid fire self defense scenarios. Those of us who had to train officers to use SA/DA pistols are well familiar with this. Although dedicated shooters can overcome the added complexity and shoot as well as anyone else with the SA/DA gun, I'd go with SeausTx's recommendation on this one.

All of my own guns are either DA or SA (counting Glock as DA. Even though it's a cross between DA and SA, the trigger pull is the same each time).

Extra complexity requires extra training and maintenance.

Simple is good when the chips are down - fewer things to think about and less to go wrong.

I'm not sure I understand? When I think of SA I think of 1911. Surely no handgun is more complex and more complex to learn than the 1911? I did develop a bad habit with my first DA/SA and that was cocking the hammer for the first shot, and if I had a good instructor from the beginning I would never have developed it at all. It wasn't as bad of a habit to break as smoking was though. I have never given much weight to trigger though, and shoot the first shot just as well/poor as the second. is the accuracy involved between SA and DA all that significant when it comes to defensive shooting. ??

Liberty wrote:is the accuracy involved between SA and DA all that significant when it comes to defensive shooting. ??

Thanks be to God, I have never had to even put my hand on my gun in a confrontation, let alone, draw it, or shoot it. However, I do get to the range and practice a bit of holster work here and there. I have two different models of carry guns. My main carry is a 1911. My occasional carry weapon is a USP Compact.

My particular USP is a DA/SA pistol (USPs are available in different configurations). It can be carried one of three ways. It can be carried cocked and locked, SA. It can be carried un-cocked, DA. And, it can be carried de-cocked, DA, but with a marginally lighter pull. Since I am left-handed and have never been able to secure an ambidextrous safety for it (don't get me started on H&K customer service), I carry it de-cocked - which gives me the best combination of safety and trigger pull.

The single action pull weight is tolerable, although nowhere near as crisp as a 1911s. The double action pull (either un-cocked or de-cocked) is fairly long and heavy - I'm guessing in the neighborhood of 8-12 lbs., although it is significant to me that H&K doesn't publish the trigger pull weight on their website. I think they know it is heavier than desirable.

Anyway, all of that is to say that, YES, my shot placement is not as good with the double action first shot, as it is when I fire that first shot in single action mode from the same pistol. My first shots in double action tend to pull to the right. I've tried making grip compensations to offset that, and it has helped some, but the double action pull still has such a long and heavy stroke that it is almost impossible (for me, anyway) to get it perfect on the first shot; and followup shots in the single action mode are much better.

If I could just get my hands on an ambidextrous safety for this pistol, I would carry it cocked and locked, as I do my 1911s. As it is, I find myself sweeping my thumb over a non-existent safety lever on the draw with this pistol. I'm not advocating against this particular brand or model for you, nor am I advocating for a 1911 pattern pistol for you. You have to figure out what's best for you. But, I am saying that you should give serious consideration to whether or not you want a DA/SA pistol. And if I had to do it all over again, I would have probably bought a Glock or an XD instead of that H&K for the simple reason that, like the 1911, the first trigger pull is the same as the last.

Anyway, that's my advice, from a fairly limited experience.

Liberty wrote:I'm not sure I understand?

When I think of SA I think of 1911. Surely no handgun is more complex and more complex to learn than the 1911? I did develop a bad habit with my first DA/SA and that was cocking the hammer for the first shot, and if I had a good instructor from the beginning I would never have developed it at all. It wasn't as bad of a habit to break as smoking was though.

I have never given much weight to trigger though, and shoot the first shot just as well/poor as the second. is the accuracy involved between SA and DA all that significant when it comes to defensive shooting. ??

In my post I spoke only about the action type, and not specific gun models.

The 1911 is one example of SA, and as you point out, the pistol's operation is somewhat more complex than something like a Glock, but no more so than an SA/DA with a safety / decocker. However, the "point'n shoot" Springfield XD is also a single action gun, and just as easy to learn as a Glock or Kahr.

The issue with the SA/DA guns is not the pull itself in either DA or SA mode - it's the transition between them under stress. In many police shootings with them it was found that the first DA round was a miss, and the hits were all fired SA. Some officers even advocated "throwing away" the first shot to get to the SA action. Needless to say, this was not endorsed by their trainers.

The problem can most certainly be overcome with adequate training and commitment, but many folks don't follow through on this (and this is true of police officers as well). Thus, SeamusTx's advice to pick one action type and stick with it makes sense, because if you "calibrate" yourself to only pull the trigger one way all the time, your likelihood of being able to do that successfully under stress (when you can expect your normal performance to degrade by 40% or more) is much greater.

This is, of course, not an absolute. If you like the DA/SA system and are willing to train to the level of unconscious competence with it, it will serve you just as well as any other.

Merry Christmas, everybody.

Sometimes my messages are a little too terse.

The discussion above amplifies what I meant by "pick an action." The movements that you have to carry out between the decision to draw and the first shot being fired are vitally important.

With SA, you have to release a safety; then you have a crisp, light trigger action. With DA you have no manual safety and a longer, heavier action -- though quite a spectrum is available there.

You don't want to have to think about which handgun you're carrying, or fumble. You want a smoothly habitual motion.

- Jim