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On one hand, you had Cooper saying the grass is greener, the sky is bluer, the beer is colder and the women are warmer.

On the other, you had Ayoob saying your friends will leave, your wife will leave, and strangers will see the mark of Cain upon you.

Perhaps I exaggerate slightly, but those two gentlemen had very different views regarding the long term effects on survivors of lethal force encounters. In their own ways, I suspect both were right insofar as their viewpoints reflect their own experiences. I believe different people are going to react differently to a shooting, just as different people react differently to divorce, job loss, and other stressors. Awareness of possible symptoms is valuable, especially for the family and friends of someone who is forced to shoot a criminal. However, we should also make every effort to avoid self fulfilling prophesies.

AndyC wrote:

apostate wrote:...strangers will see the mark of Cain upon you.

I get that at work and I'm sure most combat-vets do, too - the guys have a ghoulish curiousness but are unsure how to broach the subject (and compensate with overly-aggressive behavior to prove something to themselves), the ladies hesitate to approach to ask a work-related question and leave as quickly as they can. I'm very friendly, approachable, professional, but yeah - feeling like a zoo curiosity is just a barrel of laughs

Unfortunately it sounds like there are no other sheepdogs or even sheepdog candidates in your workplace.

Those guys behave as they do because they imagine some of the things you may have done and don't know if they would have what it takes to do the same when the chips are down. They also don't have the humility to approach you about your experiences and see what they could learn from them.

Their loss.

The women behave as they do because they have bought into the school and media fostered idea that all violence is bad and to be avoided at all costs. Since you have broken that taboo, they see you as a potentially dangerous individual because they have no understanding of the difference between justifiable protective violence and gratuitous violence.

Their loss too.

This is the way many folks react to LEO's as well. When they get in trouble, they're the first ones to get on the phone and plead for as many of those dangerous, armed, violent people as possible to get there right away to protect them, and then criticize those same officers afterwards for using matching force against the person who threatened or assaulted the complainant.

The amazing thing is they don't see any conflict between thinking that combat veterans and LEO's are nearly subhuman because they aren't members of the effete elite, and calling on those same folks to bail them out of the real life situations they don't have the foresight to prepare for or the courage to manage themselves.

Excaliber wrote:

AndyC wrote:

apostate wrote:...strangers will see the mark of Cain upon you.

I get that at work and I'm sure most combat-vets do, too - the guys have a ghoulish curiousness but are unsure how to broach the subject (and compensate with overly-aggressive behavior to prove something to themselves), the ladies hesitate to approach to ask a work-related question and leave as quickly as they can. I'm very friendly, approachable, professional, but yeah - feeling like a zoo curiosity is just a barrel of laughs

Unfortunately it sounds like there are no other sheepdogs or even sheepdog candidates in your workplace.

Those guys behave as they do because they imagine some of the things you may have done and don't know if they would have what it takes to do the same when the chips are down. They also don't have the humility to approach you about your experiences and see what they could learn from them.

Their loss.

The women behave as they do because they have bought into the school and media fostered idea that all violence is bad and to be avoided at all costs. Since you have broken that taboo, they see you as a potentially dangerous individual because they have no understanding of the difference between justifiable protective violence and gratuitous violence.

Their loss too.

This is the way many folks react to LEO's as well. When they get in trouble, they're the first ones to get on the phone and plead for as many of those dangerous, armed, violent people as possible to get there right away to protect them, and then criticize those same officers afterwards for using matching force against the person who threatened or assaulted the complainant.

The amazing thing is they don't see any conflict between thinking that combat veterans and LEO's are nearly subhuman because they aren't members of the effete elite, and calling on those same folks to bail them out of the real life situations they don't have the foresight to prepare for or the courage to manage themselves.

I question your short and rather bias sounding view of women. I have not found this to be the case for women. Speaking as a woman and on behalf of what women have confided to me, they react the way they do as they are unsure how to "hold" your hand. Most women are very compassionate and want to make things better but have no clue as to what to say and so avoid the situation.

Excaliber wrote:Those guys behave as they do because they imagine some of the things you may have done and don't know if they would have what it takes to do the same when the chips are down. They also don't have the humility to approach you about your experiences and see what they could learn from them.

"He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian:'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars.
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispin's day.'
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember with advantages
What feats he did that day: then shall our names.
Familiar in his mouth as household words
Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,
Be in their flowing cups freshly remember'd.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember'd;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day."

- Shakespear

CompVest wrote:I question your short and rather bias sounding view of women. I have not found this to be the case for women. Speaking as a woman and on behalf of what women have confided to me, they react the way they do as they are unsure how to "hold" your hand. Most women are very compassionate and want to make things better but have no clue as to what to say and so avoid the situation.

Please do not take offense where none was offered or intended. A careful reading of my post should make it clear that it did not contain any universal statement about women in general.

I simply attempted to provide perspective, from my experience, on the behavior of the particular set of women AndyC had described in his post. He was not in pain or asking for his hand to be held, and he didn't mention any need to have anything made better. He simply expressed regret that his coworkers of both sexes treated him as an outcast for having been involved in encounters where he justifiably used force and survived. IMHO, that is poor treatment by anyone.

My explanation may not resonate with everybody, but it has helped me understand, predict and deal with similar behavior in other times and places.

This phenomenon affected returning Vietnam War veterans in spades.

They rarely got parades in their honor. They were reviled in certain circles. Their families did not know how to treat them or communicate with them. They were spread too thinly across the country (unlike WW II vets) to have many fellows for support. The U.S. government did not want to acknowledge any further obligation to reward their service, if not forced to do so.

How many Vietnam War Medal of Honor recipients can you name? (There are 242.)

http://www.history.army.mil/html/moh/vietnam-a-l.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.army.mil/CMH/html/moh/vietnam-m-z.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How many famous rock musicians and athletes from 1965-75 can you name?

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:This phenomenon affected returning Vietnam War veterans in spades.

They rarely got parades in their honor. They were reviled in certain circles. Their families did not know how to treat them or communicate with them. They were spread too thinly across the country (unlike WW II vets) to have many fellows for support. The U.S. government did not want to acknowledge any further obligation to reward their service, if not forced to do so.

How many Vietnam War Medal of Honor recipients can you name? (There are 242.)

http://www.history.army.mil/html/moh/vietnam-a-l.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.army.mil/CMH/html/moh/vietnam-m-z.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How many famous rock musicians and athletes from 1965-75 can you name?

- Jim

They weren't made welcome in many of the VFW and such , generation not a real war war .... etc. The Vietnam Vets weren't joiners. The stereotypical image of a
Vietnam Vet was some one who was of a moody unstable drifter, who couldn't hold onto a job, They got discharged into a crappy economy. They did have a Decent GI bill so some went to colleges, They weren't loved by all there either.

Liberty wrote:The stereotypical image of a Vietnam Vet was some one who was of a moody unstable drifter, who couldn't hold onto a job,...

One thing I have to repeat about this stereotype: Any guy with mental problems can get a military jacket from a second-hand store and claim to be a veteran. Quite a few men claiming to be Vietnam War veterans, when their real identities can be established, did not serve and were not old enough to have done so.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:

Liberty wrote:The stereotypical image of a Vietnam Vet was some one who was of a moody unstable drifter, who couldn't hold onto a job,...

One thing I have to repeat about this stereotype: Any guy with mental problems can get a military jacket from a second-hand store and claim to be a veteran. Quite a few men claiming to be Vietnam War veterans, when their real identities can be established, did not serve and were not old enough to have done so.

- Jim

That why when I'm aproached by some bum who claims he is a veteran I just wanna kick him.

seamusTX wrote:

Liberty wrote:The stereotypical image of a Vietnam Vet was some one who was of a moody unstable drifter, who couldn't hold onto a job,...

One thing I have to repeat about this stereotype: Any guy with mental problems can get a military jacket from a second-hand store and claim to be a veteran. Quite a few men claiming to be Vietnam War veterans, when their real identities can be established, did not serve and were not old enough to have done so.

- Jim

And there were quite a few that traveled around claiming to be heroes, with their store bought medals.

-geo

One of them even ran for President!


Oops! Did I say that out loud?