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I honestly hate to Monday Morning QB a hero's actions (really, i do. brave guy. i wish more folks would stand up to bullies / criminals instead of rolling over, etc). I can't actually read the story now because the link is broken, but it's sounding like the good guy may have gotten into a verbal situation with the bad guy or even warned him to lay it down. IF that is the case that's a BAD tactical decision IMO.
The Most Deadly Knife is the Unseen One (Drow handbook, AD&D 2nd edition). I see no reason to warn the bad guy he is about to suffer the consequences of his illegal actions earlier than he had anticipated. IMO, most of these situations should play out in this manner.

Bad guy: This is a robbery. Everyone get their hands....

Good Guy: Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Stop or I'll Reload!

(sorry, i just love that joke)

Do NOT warn your attacker you're about to resist. Often times the most effective part of your tactic is violence of action and the sheer surprise that it's happening in the first place. Once an attack as begun (in the scenario described here in the BK robbery) one should appear to be relatively docile and compliant and a non-threat in general until the opportunity arises to flip the tables. At that point the bad guy should never have seen it coming. I want the attacker to wake up in the hospital and ask "what happened?"

However, a different scenario might obviously call for a different tactic. In a home invasion scenario I likely wouldn't take the time to appear to be docile / non-threatening. I would likely turn the heat up immediately, but I would make effort to try and make sure they don't see or hear me coming earlier than I want.

In small unit tactics sheer surprise may totally invert numerical superiority
- Jeff Cooper

Then if one day evil does at last arrive you will remember the watchwords - Initiative, Surprise, SPEED. You'll have a better chance than most.
- Jeff Cooper

It's difficult to have surprise if they know you're coming and they know you're a threat.

Major kudos to the guy for standing up to the stone of evil though. Anyone know how to track down the guy's email address or mailing address? I'd love to send him a card / note of support.

Evil is the stone on which the sword of Good is sharpened.
-Anon.

ninjamedic2293 wrote: The only truly effective incapacitating hit is one which results in either 1-A round impacting and/or penetrating the skull and causing a sufficient insult to the brain to induce unconsciousness,

"Ptooey! I spit on your brain."


sorry, but that was the first thought in my head after reading "insult to the brain."

Like I heard Massad say one time about turning off the computer. one way or another, that computer gets turned off, the rest of the "machine" will cease to function.

The gun used by the robber was on the list of top 10 guns used in crimes in the U.S. in 2000, according TIME magazine, which published a study by U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

And the point of this sentence is?

-Cain

CainA wrote:

The gun used by the robber was on the list of top 10 guns used in crimes in the U.S. in 2000, according TIME magazine, which published a study by U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

And the point of this sentence is?

-Cain

criminals buy cheap guns.... ?

I used to own a bryco 380 and disliked it so much i gave it away to a neighbor for free when he told me he didn't have a weapon. I thought about selling it to him, but I'd have felt bad for taking his hard earned money in exchange for it.

CainA wrote:

The gun used by the robber was on the list of top 10 guns used in crimes in the U.S. in 2000, according TIME magazine, which published a study by U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

And the point of this sentence is?

-Cain

I think they were trying to note that these Bryco/Jennings/Jiminez/Raven line of pistols are very popular with the gang-bangers and thugs. They are small and easily concealable and probably more important is they are cheap enough to toss if they have to ditch them.

Here is the TIME article that that was referred to from 2002:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... 83,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The reporter probably just googled "Bryco 380." That how I found it.

The Bryco .380 is #9 on the list. Many of the others are quite respectable and more expensive firearms.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:Here is the TIME article that that was referred to from 2002:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... 83,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The reporter probably just googled "Bryco 380." That how I found it.

The Bryco .380 is #9 on the list. Many of the others are quite respectable and more expensive firearms.

- Jim

5 of the 10 are Satuyrday night specials though.

03Lightningrocks wrote:I'm not trying to be a know it all here, but I think the "one shot drop" is pretty much a movie scene. Your shot would have to be just right to drop em in their tracks.

Not all "one shot drop" are Hollywood make believe. Of course you are right, it would have to be just right to drop him in his tracks. He may not like you getting too close to ambush him.

This guy did not have a choice. One shot from what looks like a S&W Chief dropped him.
Saigon, 1968, Tet Offensive
http://www.wellesley.edu/Polisci/wj/Vie ... c-exec.mov

Moderator edit: Video contains graphic images and may not be suitable for some viewers.

seamusTX wrote:Here is the TIME article that that was referred to from 2002:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... 83,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The reporter probably just googled "Bryco 380." That how I found it.

The Bryco .380 is #9 on the list. Many of the others are quite respectable and more expensive firearms.

- Jim

The 2000 list is an interesting change from a 1995 report by the ATF. Still looking for a more recent one. Here is the 1994 list:

10 most frequently traced guns in 1994
Rank Manufacturer Model Caliber Type Number traced
1 Lorcin P25 .25 Pistol 3,223
2 Davis Industries P380 .38 Pistol 2,454
3 Raven Arms MP25 .25 Pistol 2,107
4 Lorcin L25 .25 Pistol 1,258
5 Mossburg 500 12G Shotgun 1,015
6 Phoenix Arms Raven .25 Pistol 959
7 Jennings J22 .22 Pistol 929
8 Ruger P89 9 mm Pistol 895
9 Glock 17 9 mm Pistol 843
10 Bryco 38 .38 Pistol 820

I don't know about anyone else, but personally cracked up when the article said

pointed his tiny semiautomatic Bryco .380 towards the restaurant's employees

just something about that was funny...

A lot more "economy" pistols in 1994.

Remember, this may not be a representative sample. It's something like ten thousand weapons seized from among millions that may be in circulation among criminals. Maybe only the least competent criminals use cheap roscoes.

- Jim

CainA wrote:

The gun used by the robber was on the list of top 10 guns used in crimes in the U.S. in 2000, according TIME magazine, which published a study by U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

And the point of this sentence is?

-Cain

The same as if they mentioned the robber's ethnicity and how often that ethinicity commits crimes.

seamusTX wrote:Here is the TIME article that that was referred to from 2002:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... 83,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The reporter probably just googled "Bryco 380." That how I found it.

The Bryco .380 is #9 on the list. Many of the others are quite respectable and more expensive firearms.

- Jim

I wonder if the usage of it in this shooting will get it moved up to number eight?

Part paraphrase, part cut and paste from the Miami Herald.com article:

Police identify robber, customer in deadly Burger King shooting
The good guy in this was John Landers, 45. The bad guy was Johnny Jean-Baptiste, 18.
The robber came in wearing a ski mask and pointed his tiny Bryco .380 <what the hell kind
of a Saturday night special is that?> at the employees.
That's when Landers, armed with a concealed weapons permit and his 9mm Glock 19, asked Jean-Baptiste to put the gun down, according to the police report.
Jean-Baptiste refused and began firing his gun and Landers shot back, police reported.

Jean-Baptiste fell to the floor and was pronounced dead at the scene.

Landers, who was shot several times, was in serious but stable condition at Jackson Memorial Hospital's Ryder Trauma Center.

After the shootings, police divided witnesses into several groups outside the restaurant to gather information about the incident. Employees waiting to start their shift called friends and family members on their cellphones to pass the time because they were not allowed through the police tape.

''I just hope all my people are OK inside,'' Cynthia Thomas, who has worked at the Burger King for five years, said at the time. ``It is scary.''

The area is a prime destination for residents in the Upper East Side neighborhood -- featuring Soyka's restaurant, Sushi Siam and Andiamo Pizza.

The gun used by the robber was on the list of top 10 guns used in crimes in the U.S. in 2000, according TIME magazine, which published a study by U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

Miami Herald staff writer Robert Samuels contributed to this story.
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Well, Monday morning quarterbacking is great. Landers tried to cut the robber some slack instead of just shooting him, but sometimes things just
don't work out as we'd like.

Quality body piercing by Glock is more than just a T-shirt slogan.