Straw purchase

[dicion]

most of my firearms were purchased through ffl dealers, although I inherited some and bought others in face to face deals from people I know, or have reason to trust. My complaint is with the direction this thread wandered off into placing a cloud of suspicion on "unrecorded" face to face deals. The question I still seem to have unanswered in this discussion, particularly to those that seem to think there is something wrong with purchasing a firearm one day and later selling to another individual, is equal to a straw purchase. Again, if face to face transactions are legal in the State of Texas, how much time has to elapse between those legal transfers to avoid being acused of a straw purchase? Again, I said LEGAL transfers between a seller and buyer that are both legally qualified to purchase, own and possess a firearm.

still curious

surv

There is no timeframe, it's all subjective. For example:

If you purchased a gun on any random day, with the intent of keeping it for yourself, Took it to the Range that afternoon to test it out, and decided that you did not like the way it kicks, or simply the grip of the weapon, and sold it that afternoon to someone else, that is NOT a straw purchase.

However, if your buddy asked you to buy a gun for him, and you do so, and he doesn't pick it up from you or pay you until a year later, it is still a straw purchase because the initial intention of the purchase was for someone else.

It all boils down to your intent for the weapon at the time you are purchasing it. If you purchase it with the Intent to resell it, it is a straw purchase. If not, it is not. What you change your mind, and intend to do with it 1 hour later is irrelevant.

[mr surveyor]

yep!

Thanks

surv

[03Lightningrocks]

most of my firearms were purchased through ffl dealers, although I inherited some and bought others in face to face deals from people I know, or have reason to trust. My complaint is with the direction this thread wandered off into placing a cloud of suspicion on "unrecorded" face to face deals. The question I still seem to have unanswered in this discussion, particularly to those that seem to think there is something wrong with purchasing a firearm one day and later selling to another individual, is equal to a straw purchase. Again, if face to face transactions are legal in the State of Texas, how much time has to elapse between those legal transfers to avoid being acused of a straw purchase? Again, I said LEGAL transfers between a seller and buyer that are both legally qualified to purchase, own and possess a firearm.

still curious

surv

The amount of time you have the gun means nothing. It all depends on your intentions when you sign the form you filled out. The question on the form is real simple. "Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person.

It matters not what anyone thinks of the emotions of it all. Either way. If you are buying the weapon with the intentions of selling it to someone else...you broke the law.

Again...time passed means nothing.

[gwholt1]

The intent of your purchase of the firearm is irrelvent, ie collection, self defence, resale etc.
The restriction involved is to prevent an unqualified individual from obtaining the firearm by using you to shield them from the restrictions of the law which would prevent them legally obtaining the firearm.
As long as you are the one purchasing the firearm you may do what ever you want with it as owner. An example cited often is someone paying you $X over and above the purchase price of the firearm to go make the buy for them, thereby making it a straw purchase.

[Stupid]

The intent of your purchase of the firearm is irrelvent, ie collection, self defence, resale etc.
The restriction involved is to prevent an unqualified individual from obtaining the firearm by using you to shield them from the restrictions of the law which would prevent them legally obtaining the firearm.
As long as you are the one purchasing the firearm you may do what ever you want with it as owner. An example cited often is someone paying you $X over and above the purchase price of the firearm to go make the buy for them, thereby making it a straw purchase.

As per ATF, your intent at the time of purchase is everything. The restriction is not to prevent an unqualified individual from obtaining the firearm rather to prevent ANYBODY from obtaining the firearm for anybody, no matter that person is an qualified individual or not.

The bottom line is that you can only purchase an firearm for your self-keeping or gift it out. If you sell your gun after the purchase, you run the risk of being an felony, strictly speaking.

[joe817]

"What is a "straw purchase?"
A straw purchase is when a buyer uses an intermediary (the "straw man") to purchase a firearm(s) from a licensed firearms dealer. The purpose is to hide the true identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm(s). Straw purchases are a felony violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 for both the straw purchaser (who can be charged with lying on Federal Form 4473) and the actual possessor. Frequently, the actual purchaser is a prohibited person under federal law."

http://www.nssf.org/media/FactSheets/Straw_Purchase.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I just googled this statement: "straw purchase of a firearm" and got 45,200 hits.

I think the link to the National Shooting Sports Foundation pretty much clarifies things. At least it does for me.

[03Lightningrocks]

The purpose of the law was to make it illegal for a person who is qualified to purchase a firearm to purchase a firearm for a person who doesn't qualify to purchase a firearm. Like so many other laws, fallout creates issues for folks the law was never meant to create issues for.

The form asks a very simple question that only has a yes/no answer. There is no part of the question with exceptions. It states nowhere that it is OK to buy a gun as a gift on that form. Technically we are lying on the form if we state that we are purchasing the gun for ourselves when we intend to give it as a gift.

The burden of proof to this lie is with the ATF. If you tell the dealer you are buying the gun for your son, daughter, aunt uncle, what ever as a gift and then you write yes on the box declaring the gun is for you, the FFL holder has just witnessed a felony. Right or wrong.....regardless of the odds of getting caught...that is the way it is. Fill out the form and keep your mouth shut about what you plan to do with said gun.

[mymojo]

So what if my brother buys me a gun as a gift and then I pay him milage for bringing it to me?

Hey, dont laugh, its kept a lot of working girls out of jail!

[Stupid]

The purpose of the law was to make it illegal for a person who is qualified to purchase a firearm to purchase a firearm for a person who doesn't qualify to purchase a firearm. Like so many other laws, fallout creates issues for folks the law was never meant to create issues for.

The form asks a very simple question that only has a yes/no answer. There is no part of the question with exceptions. It states nowhere that it is OK to buy a gun as a gift on that form. Technically we are lying on the form if we state that we are purchasing the gun for ourselves when we intend to give it as a gift.

The burden of proof to this lie is with the ATF. If you tell the dealer you are buying the gun for your son, daughter, aunt uncle, what ever as a gift and then you write yes on the box declaring the gun is for you, the FFL holder has just witnessed a felony. Right or wrong.....regardless of the odds of getting caught...that is the way it is. Fill out the form and keep your mouth shut about what you plan to do with said gun.

Gifting is perfectly fine as per ATF while reselling is NOT.

[03Lightningrocks]

The purpose of the law was to make it illegal for a person who is qualified to purchase a firearm to purchase a firearm for a person who doesn't qualify to purchase a firearm. Like so many other laws, fallout creates issues for folks the law was never meant to create issues for.

The form asks a very simple question that only has a yes/no answer. There is no part of the question with exceptions. It states nowhere that it is OK to buy a gun as a gift on that form. Technically we are lying on the form if we state that we are purchasing the gun for ourselves when we intend to give it as a gift.

The burden of proof to this lie is with the ATF. If you tell the dealer you are buying the gun for your son, daughter, aunt uncle, what ever as a gift and then you write yes on the box declaring the gun is for you, the FFL holder has just witnessed a felony. Right or wrong.....regardless of the odds of getting caught...that is the way it is. Fill out the form and keep your mouth shut about what you plan to do with said gun.

Gifting is perfectly fine as per ATF while reselling is NOT.

I think you are missing the point. The form has NOTHING about gifting. Again...the question is simple. It is yes or no answer. We are all aware that gifting is fine. At 48 I have given away as many guns as I have kept...LOL. Technically, you are lying on the form if you answer yes to the question about the gun being for you if you purchase it for someone else. There is nothing on the form about how much you intend to sell or give it away for. Lying on the form is a felony. if you tell the truth on the form and say No, then you can't buy the gun. The form is flawed and some gun dealers have gotten so scared of the ATF, they will refuse to sell you a gun if your mouth says one thing while your pen is saying something else. It happened to me at the gun show....and it was because I said it was a gift...and spoke of how much they were going to like the gun. I have also had dealers balk on me with this situation before. The gun show episode was the first time one ever took it to the extreme on me.I would highly recommend anyone buying a gun, no matter how innocent your intentions are, just KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT ABOUT WHAT YOU INTEND TO DO WITH THE GUN...and answer the questions on the form.

[aardwolf]

Stop quoting the law! Can't you tell people made up their minds and don't want to be confused by the facts.

[HankB]

Unless a lot of guns you purchase end up in someone else's hands, proving "intent" is next to impossible as long as you keep your mouth shut. (Note that most "straw purchase" prosecutions we hear about involve people supplying guns to thugs and gangstas, often in large numbers.)

I suspect a LOT of technically illegal straw purchases occur between family members - husband/wife, father/son, brother/brother, etc. As long as the receiving party is not a crook, druggie, or something of the sort, I say that wrong and illegal are two totally different things.

How many fathers have signed the paperwork for a son who saved up his allowance or paper route money for a .22, but is still not quite 18? Is a crime committed if Junior gives Dad $150 so the old man can buy him a .22? STRAW PURCHASE! STRAW PURCHASE!

This sort of "crime" - with no victim and no harm to anyone - will remain unknown as long as nobody does anything stupid like talking about it, emailing one another about it, or posting the story on Facebook.

[SlowDave]

I'd like to see more references to code (law) in this discussion.

My personal experience is that I was looking at guns at a retail store, considering purchasing one for my dad as a gift. I casually mentioned to the clerk that I was looking for my dad and that it is difficult to guess what he would like in a gun. The clerk pulled me aside and quietly told me about straw purchases and that they're a felony (no mention of exceptions for gifts or anything else) and then asked, "Now WHO are you buying this gun for?" I said, "For me." He said, "That's what I thought."

I won't mention the store or anything as they could probably get in big trouble for that, but the guy was dealing with what we're dealing with. That is that the law is a bit over the top and the idea is to prevent "clean" people from purchasing a weapon for the gang-banger standing outside the shop. (Why they'd even risk going near a FFL dealer instead of buying off the street is beyond me, but...)

The NSSF link shows what the other poster said, that there is an exception for a gift. I looked all through 27CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) which is the ATF's section of US code, and I can't find anything about straw purchases. (27CFR section 478 is the main section regulating firearm purchases, etc.) I'd like to know the answer to this from code, not someone's opinion. Anyone got a reference?

In real life, people (not me of course) have purchased guns for sons, daughters, spouses, etc. and I don't blame them one bit. If it's a stupid law, then it deserves to be broken. If it also happens to be pretty much unenforceable, then so much the better.

p.s. if you break it, be prepared for the possible, even if unlikely consequences.

[CompVest]

In real life, people (not me of course) have purchased guns for sons, daughters, spouses, etc. and I don't blame them one bit. If it's a stupid law, then it deserves to be broken. If it also happens to be pretty much unenforceable, then so much the better.

If it is a bad law it deserves to be changed! IMHO

[Stupid]

If it is a bad law it deserves to be changed! IMHO

My point exactly. Only buying for ineligible person should be classified as a crime.