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The Annoyed Man wrote:When I say I'm the guy that brings a gun to a knife fight, it's not because I don't understand the value of a knife as a weapon at very close range... So I'm just not going to let a threat get that close to me. That's what the gun is for, and that's why I don't carry knives for the primary purpose of self defense.

Sendin' you a PM, my friend.

I have, let's see, eight or nine scars from knives. A honkin' one on my left forearm.

I grew up in the Philippines: a white-boy target of the OXO and Sigue-Sigue gangs. I never remember seeing a gun (other than the randomly-attempted political assassination), only knives. On the street, mostly Balisong.

As someone else mentioned, I typically carry two knives: I'm not as flexible as I used to be, so I want to be able to access a knife with either hand.

The data shows that bad stuff is likely to happen up close and personal. If a VCA is trying to take my sidearm, I'd like to have a blade in my off-hand. Makes a very good retention tool.

gigag04 wrote:We just finished a day of knife defense at my dept today. Our instructor retired a couple years back as a 25 yr vet sgt with our agency. He also holds 8th degree black belts in 4+ martial arts. He is disgusting with a knife. He trained with the Philipinos back in the day and it is unreal how dangerous a trained knife fighter is.

Advanced dans, or "degrees," are honorary; and as an indication of fighting ability, pretty much meaningless. The best fighters in any style are, like any elite athletes, young studs in their twenties.

I'm intrested to know with whom your instructor "trained with the Philipinos back in the day."

Having lived in the Philippines for six years from 1966 to 1971 and studied under Grandmaster Florentino Pecate, Sr., I can state with certainty there were very, VERY few Americans practicing arnis in the Philippines at that time.

surprise_i'm_armed wrote:TAM:
As a little aside to the knife issue, was it you that said the only
time you ever saw a bullet go through and exit a body, that it
was a .41 Magnum?

We're supposed to use JHP's as our self defense carry loads instead
of FMJ's in order to avoid over-penetrating the person we shoot.

SIA

[off topic]
No, I've seen lots of other exit wounds from bullets, but the exit holes were all relatively small — only a little larger than the entrance wound — and going by those cases in which there were multiple hits, some of which exited and some which did not, those were mostly caused by either FMJ or hard cast bullets. I could have put my fist into the exit hole from the .41 magnum, but the bullet had passed through his heart on the way to his kidney (which no longer existed) and the guy was very much dead. His partner, also a bad guy, had two through and through wounds traversing from one side to the other which turned his guts to soup. It took him a week to die a hard death. I have no idea if the .41 magnum bullets were JHP or not because all of the wounds they caused were through and through, but judging by the havoc they caused, I'm guessing they were.

That said, most of us aren't carrying pistols chambered in magnum calibers beginning with "4", and so I don't think that over penetration with a JHP is a likely issue. And in the particular case of this shooting, the two "victims" were felons escaped from Ft Leavenworth prison who had made it as far as California, and they were attempting a home invasion on a little old lady from Pasadena. What they didn't know was that her son was visiting at the time and was upstairs. The son was was a semi-retired artist, a painter, who was also a former Green Beret with a number of years "in country" with A Teams in Vietnam. He knew exactly what to do.

The bad guys brought the .41 magnum with them. The one with the gun went upstairs looking for loot while the other one slapped the old lady around. The son met the bad guy at the top of the stairs, disarmed him, kicked his a** four kinds of terrible, threw him down the stairs, and shot him twice on the way down, killing him. He then charged down the stairs and shot the other bad guy twice. That's the one who took a week to die.

This happened sometime around 1982-1985. I tried to search the Pasadena Star News website for an archival story on it, but it predates their even having a website so I am unable to provide a link to it. But it was a big deal back then, getting lots of coverage in both the Star News, the LA Times, and local TV news outlets; and the son was celebrated as a hero.
[/off topic]

Skiprr, I got your message. Thanks for the link. I'm reading it right now. BTW, I guess I should amend my previous comments to say that I would use a knife if required, but I regard it as a weapon of last resort, and in recognition of my own physical condition, I would say that if I've got to use a knife, I've already done something wrong somewhere. The knife that I carry, a Kershaw Tanto Blur, could be used as a weapon; but so far it has only been used to open boxes and letters and to peel fruit with.

By the way, I have a question....

If you begin the confrontation with a gun in one hand and a knife in the other, how do you reload if you have to?

I use my knife everyday, for cutting things.
I guess I could you my gun to open bottles and turn off lights, but I think people would complain

marksiwel wrote:I use my knife everyday, for cutting things.
I guess I could you my gun to open bottles and turn off lights, but I think people would complain

marksiwel wrote:I use my knife everyday, for cutting things.
I guess I could you my gun to open bottles and turn off lights, but I think people would complain

The only problem is the lights will never turn back on.

I carry a knife all the time! Its a tool and a last line of defense as mentioned.

If I'm threatened enough to pull a knife on someone, it will not be the knife I draw. It'll be my 45.
Knives scare me!

TAM:

Thanks for taking the time to fill us all in on that .41 Magnum
incident. That is one awesome story of warrior spirit in 1 man
taking care of 2 lowlifes.

SIA

The Annoyed Man wrote:Skiprr, I got your message. Thanks for the link. I'm reading it right now.

By the way, I have a question....

If you begin the confrontation with a gun in one hand and a knife in the other, how do you reload if you have to?

Depends on the knife.

Seriously, though, think of the blade in your offhand much as you might a flashlight. My personal preference in flashlight usage is the Harries technique. This translates very well to a blade in your offhand. My choice is reverse-edge carry, and that is particularly appropriate to a Harries grip; but the Harries can work for more conventional knife-grips, as well.

While you might tuck your flashlight into your strongarm armpit during a reload, I don't recommend doing that with a blade under tense situations.

Most of us carry folders or small fixed-blade knives. Odds are the hilt of your knife is no thicker than a magazine from your gun.

On reload, first shift the pistol (if necessary) so your thumb can reach the magazine eject button; do not yet eject the mag.

Move the butt of your knife so that you can grasp it between the third and fourth fingers of your gunhand. Move your offhand in under the muzzle; do not cover your offhand.

Eject the expended mag, and perform administrative operations normally.

When done, reach back under the plane of the muzzle of your gun, secure a grip on your knife, and you're all-hands back in the fight.

AndyC is absolutely right. A knife is HORRIBLE as a defensive weapon. Please read the link he posted. It is legally a DEADLY WEAPON and will make you the aggressor if you pull a knife in a fist fight. It will leave you dead if you pull a knife in a gun fight. It is too deadly for fist fights and not powerful enough for a gun fight. In other words, it is good for ZERO self-defense situations.

I do carry a small swiss army tool. It is handy to cut your seat belt if you are trapped in a car. It even has a special windshield breaker if you are trapped in your vehicle. You can also use it to fix stuff and cut cords, fish hooks, etc. So, yeah, carry one, but it is NOT a self-defense tool. Leave that for your gun and pepper spray.

drjoker wrote:A knife is HORRIBLE as a defensive weapon. Please read the link he posted. It is legally a DEADLY WEAPON and will make you the aggressor if you pull a knife in a fist fight. It will leave you dead if you pull a knife in a gun fight. It is too deadly for fist fights and not powerful enough for a gun fight. In other words, it is good for ZERO self-defense situations....

So, yeah, carry one, but it is NOT a self-defense tool. Leave that for your gun and pepper spray.

I gotta disagree with your post about a knife is good for zero self defense situations. I mean if the situation warrants lethal force, then a knife is one tool that meets that level of force.

I also wonder were people get the idea that a knife is not a deadly weapon. Maybe some of stuff the biomechanical cutting enthusists are pushing?

drjoker wrote:In other words, it is good for ZERO self-defense situations.

For you.

Some people say a gun is useless for self defense. I agree it is for them.

My knives are for a variety of chores to include gun retention. If you're not familiar with the Tueller 21-foot Drill, you may want to familiarize yourself with it. One would think that a gun beats a knife every time. With superior weaponry, the fight should be easily won. But Sergeant Dennis Tueller, of the Salt Lake City, Utah Police Department, showed that it was not that simple. Bottom line under normal circumstances, if the BG is within 21 feet and your gun is in your holster - advantage knife. This drill has been videotaped in training again and again for the non-believer.

drjoker wrote:AndyC is absolutely right. A knife is HORRIBLE as a defensive weapon. Please read the link he posted. It is legally a DEADLY WEAPON and will make you the aggressor if you pull a knife in a fist fight. It will leave you dead if you pull a knife in a gun fight. It is too deadly for fist fights and not powerful enough for a gun fight. In other words, it is good for ZERO self-defense situations.

I do carry a small swiss army tool. It is handy to cut your seat belt if you are trapped in a car. It even has a special windshield breaker if you are trapped in your vehicle. You can also use it to fix stuff and cut cords, fish hooks, etc. So, yeah, carry one, but it is NOT a self-defense tool. Leave that for your gun and pepper spray.

If I get in a fist fight its because the other person jumped me or came out of no where. I dont "Fist Fight" people, I'm not the aggressor ever, and if I am going to use force its going to be to knock out, or subdue the other person (I count shooting as subduing)