TexasCHLforum.com

LarryH wrote:

Hoi Polloi wrote:What's the name of that guy who is a well-known criminal? Rapist? Murderer? I don't recall. Infamous, though. He was a well-groomed elderly man who would often fake a limp, IIRC, and would often ask for assistance from women like asking for help getting into the car, again IIRC. I don't remember enough details to get a good hit on searches. I imagine if you or I were pointing a gun at him when the police arrived, they'd assume we were the perps.

Although he certainly wasn't elderly, Ted Bundy used a similar ploy to get close enough to some of his victims.

That must be the one! Thank you! My memory was so vague that it was just enough to get really frustrated that I couldn't remember more and figure it out.

I emailed the Pflugerville PD today to ask some questions about this topic. I'll be sure to post any responses that I receive.

Hoi Polloi wrote:

tacticool wrote:

baldeagle wrote:For purposes of this discussion, we're going to assume that you have drawn your gun and fired it and a single BG is disabled but not dead. There are no other BGs. You have the BG at gunpoint, and you have just called 911.

What information is vital to give to 911? Your description? The BG's description and condition? The fact that you have the BG at gunpoint? Discuss.

Did I run out of ammo?

I completely agree with the idea that you should keep shooting until the threat is no longer a threat. And I like to think that even if he falls down with the first shot, that I could put two in the chest and one in the head in the time it takes gravity to pull him to the floor. But we all know that doesn't always happen. (Rarely happens if you read all the accounts of "suspect was treated at the hospital," or "the wounded suspect was found hiding in the bushes at a neighbor's house.") If he's on the floor, injured, it may be difficult to justify shooting him again. So you may be standing there with a gun on him. You may be afraid that if you put your gun away, that this person may suddenly decide to continue the fight, but equally afraid that if you don't put your gun away, the police will shoot you when they arrive on the scene. I think that's what this discussion is about.

mgood wrote: If he's on the floor, injured, it may be difficult to justify shooting him again. So you may be standing there with a gun on him. You may be afraid that if you put your gun away, that this person may suddenly decide to continue the fight, but equally afraid that if you don't put your gun away, the police will shoot you when they arrive on the scene. I think that's what this discussion is about.

Yep, that is exactly it for me. Pardon me if I have more than a little reservation that me standing there with gun still pointed at the BG when the LEOs show up will not go well for me in several ways. Our daughter has been a police dispatcher in a local town in the DFW area for several years. I'll simply say that not all dispatchers are top performers and that not all messages delivered via 911 phone calls are correctly communicated to the responding officers.

So, hypothetically, what would you use as the criteria for adding more lead to the situation if the BG does fall to the ground and initially doesn't move. As I weight the risks of a) maintaining a continuing cover, b) withdrawing far enough that a firefight doesn't erupt before the LEOs get there when the BG surprisingly is up and moving around and adding enough "insurance" to the situation that will later get me a long term in prison, none of the options look very good.

I think if I had to shoot to defend my life, there's a very good chance I would shoot a personal best Bill Drill.

I also think I have no legal obligation to detain a criminal for the police. My concern is my safety and the safety of people I care about. Cover is good. Movement is good, especially movement to cover. My draw is pretty good so reholstering behind cover is a possibility if I don't see anyone else I think I might have to shoot. Bugging out is a possibility depending on the situation.

chasfm11 wrote:

mgood wrote: If he's on the floor, injured, it may be difficult to justify shooting him again. So you may be standing there with a gun on him. You may be afraid that if you put your gun away, that this person may suddenly decide to continue the fight, but equally afraid that if you don't put your gun away, the police will shoot you when they arrive on the scene. I think that's what this discussion is about.

Yep, that is exactly it for me. Pardon me if I have more than a little reservation that me standing there with gun still pointed at the BG when the LEOs show up will not go well for me in several ways. Our daughter has been a police dispatcher in a local town in the DFW area for several years. I'll simply say that not all dispatchers are top performers and that not all messages delivered via 911 phone calls are correctly communicated to the responding officers.

So, hypothetically, what would you use as the criteria for adding more lead to the situation if the BG does fall to the ground and initially doesn't move. As I weight the risks of a) maintaining a continuing cover, b) withdrawing far enough that a firefight doesn't erupt before the LEOs get there when the BG surprisingly is up and moving around and adding enough "insurance" to the situation that will later get me a long term in prison, none of the options look very good.

I'm still formulating plans, so this is open to corrections, improvements, derision, etc.

I think the best thing to do is position yourself so that the BG is between you and whatever direction the police would be arriving from. You want the officers to see both you and the downed BG when they arrive. Until the police arrive, I would keep my gun at the ready, trigger finger on the slide in the safe position, muzzle pointed at the ground. If the BG wakes up and becomes a threat again (moves toward me, grabs his gun, whatever, I shoot him again. If he attempts to escape, I let him go, but only if he doesn't present a threat to anyone else in the house. As the police are arriving, I prepare to holster my gun and raise my hands, palms facing the officers.

baldeagle wrote:I'm still formulating plans . . .

Good. Never stop.
I firmly believe that playing these "what if" games makes us reevaluate our plans. Maybe you form a better plan. Maybe you gain confidence in your existing plan. But just thinking the situations through puts us way ahead of people who never consider such things.

I am not sticking around the immediate area after a shooting unless one of my loved ones is present and can not leave for some reason. Run away, call 911.

baldeagle wrote:

chasfm11 wrote:

mgood wrote: If he's on the floor, injured, it may be difficult to justify shooting him again. So you may be standing there with a gun on him. You may be afraid that if you put your gun away, that this person may suddenly decide to continue the fight, but equally afraid that if you don't put your gun away, the police will shoot you when they arrive on the scene. I think that's what this discussion is about.

Yep, that is exactly it for me. Pardon me if I have more than a little reservation that me standing there with gun still pointed at the BG when the LEOs show up will not go well for me in several ways. Our daughter has been a police dispatcher in a local town in the DFW area for several years. I'll simply say that not all dispatchers are top performers and that not all messages delivered via 911 phone calls are correctly communicated to the responding officers.

So, hypothetically, what would you use as the criteria for adding more lead to the situation if the BG does fall to the ground and initially doesn't move. As I weight the risks of a) maintaining a continuing cover, b) withdrawing far enough that a firefight doesn't erupt before the LEOs get there when the BG surprisingly is up and moving around and adding enough "insurance" to the situation that will later get me a long term in prison, none of the options look very good.

I'm still formulating plans, so this is open to corrections, improvements, derision, etc.

I think the best thing to do is position yourself so that the BG is between you and whatever direction the police would be arriving from. You want the officers to see both you and the downed BG when they arrive. Until the police arrive, I would keep my gun at the ready, trigger finger on the slide in the safe position, muzzle pointed at the ground. If the BG wakes up and becomes a threat again (moves toward me, grabs his gun, whatever, I shoot him again. If he attempts to escape, I let him go, but only if he doesn't present a threat to anyone else in the house. As the police are arriving, I prepare to holster my gun and raise my hands, palms facing the officers.

It's definitely a good idea to work through the details before you find yourself in an actual situation.

In the interests of continuing plan refinement, if the BG is between you and the approaching police, and the BG selects that moment to initiate an attack on either you or the police, which of you can safely fire without endangering the other?

Consider also that, if you fired on the bad guy, both the police and any witnesses would in all likelihood see what appears to be you shooting at the police.

More good reasons to get behind cover if/when you can.

I just briefly read each response on this thread.

What do our resident LEO's think about this scenario?

Excaliber wrote:It's definitely a good idea to work through the details before you find yourself in an actual situation.

In the interests of continuing plan refinement, if the BG is between you and the approaching police, and the BG selects that moment to initiate an attack on either you or the police, which of you can safely fire without endangering the other?

Consider also that, if you fired on the bad guy, both the police and any witnesses would in all likelihood see what appears to be you shooting at the police.

{{{Sigh}}}... thanks a lot, Excaliber.

This is a lot harder than I thought at first.

Let's see...I don't want to lose sight of the BG. I don't want to get in his way if he gets up and escapes. I don't want him to attack me again. I don't want the police to mistake me for a BG and shoot me. I can't trust 911 to convey the correct information to the responding officers. This is a dilemma wrapped in a conundrum.

The guy that was shot six times while holding the BG at gunpoint had his back to the officers. Apparently that's a bad idea, even when your wife tells the officers that her husband is the one with the gun, please don't shoot him. So I think I should be facing the officers, at least enough that they can see my hands and my gun, but I clearly cannot even appear to point my gun in their direction. So, if possible, the entering officers should be at 90 degrees or less to me, with the BG in view but not with the officers in the line of fire. If possible, I want the officers to see my strong hand and the fact that my finger is not on the trigger. The gun needs to be pointed toward the floor and directionally away from the officers.

Am I getting warmer?

baldeagle wrote:

Excaliber wrote:It's definitely a good idea to work through the details before you find yourself in an actual situation.

In the interests of continuing plan refinement, if the BG is between you and the approaching police, and the BG selects that moment to initiate an attack on either you or the police, which of you can safely fire without endangering the other?

Consider also that, if you fired on the bad guy, both the police and any witnesses would in all likelihood see what appears to be you shooting at the police.

{{{Sigh}}}... thanks a lot, Excaliber.

This is a lot harder than I thought at first.

Let's see...I don't want to lose sight of the BG. I don't want to get in his way if he gets up and escapes. I don't want him to attack me again. I don't want the police to mistake me for a BG and shoot me. I can't trust 911 to convey the correct information to the responding officers. This is a dilemma wrapped in a conundrum.

The guy that was shot six times while holding the BG at gunpoint had his back to the officers. Apparently that's a bad idea, even when your wife tells the officers that her husband is the one with the gun, please don't shoot him. So I think I should be facing the officers, at least enough that they can see my hands and my gun, but I clearly cannot even appear to point my gun in their direction. So, if possible, the entering officers should be at 90 degrees or less to me, with the BG in view but not with the officers in the line of fire. If possible, I want the officers to see my strong hand and the fact that my finger is not on the trigger. The gun needs to be pointed toward the floor and directionally away from the officers.

Am I getting warmer?

The issue I see with your last major paragraph above is that of getting mired-down in details. How are you going to determine which way you are going to kneel, squat, point, determine elevation and so on?

In my mind there are two main factors here:

1) do you still need to keep the gun on the BG?
2) If you do, how do you communicate (physically, verbally, signage, banner, smoke signals,etc.) to LEO's that you are the GG?

I like the idea someone mentioned on another thread where you have your weapon trained on the BG that you presumably have not terminated, and use your offhand to hold your wallet way up in the air. This appeals to me as it is noticeable and unusual enough that it just might give the LEO pause.

I am not saying anyone is right or wrong. I am just saying that the KISS principle is one of my favorite maxim's.

First thing I'd do if I disabled what I thought was a lone BG, I'd reholster my weapon, keeping it a little more accessible if needed again (quite possibly with my hand on the butt at my waist VERY casually), while keeping a very close eye on the BG. Possible people whom may be around you, witnesses and others walking up after hearing a gun discharge in public don't need to see you pointing a gun at a disabled BG and drawing conclusions. This will keep people from freaking out and riling up the LEO(s) to your presence when they get there and will also keep other CHL holders and LEO's from mistaking you for a BG.

Try to get in touch, or back in touch, with a 911 operator to update them on the situation and hopefully get that info through to the responding LEO(s). Don't leave anything up to chance and don't flee the scene. Just act calmly and don't have your gun out if you don't need it out any further. When LEO(s) arrive have both hands visible away from pockets; place them in the air to flag them down. That will give you something non-aggressive and non-questionable to do with your hands while they approach. I would strongly suggest you identify yourself as the one whom "disabled" the BG and let them know you are a CHL holder and that you are currently still armed; use words not actions to get that across, ofcourse. Don't dig in pockets for yo0ur gun OR your CHL license until you're told to do so.

I have never been in any situations demanding of these actions, but I have read these forums and other stories and have pondered much. So, by all means, if you disagree with any of my opinions on the best course of actions let me know.

bzo311 wrote:First thing I'd do if I disabled what I thought was a lone BG, I'd reholster my weapon, keeping it a little more accessible if needed again (quite possibly with my hand on the butt at my waist VERY casually), while keeping a very close eye on the BG. Possible people whom may be around you, witnesses and others walking up after hearing a gun discharge in public don't need to see you pointing a gun at a disabled BG and drawing conclusions. This will keep people from freaking out and riling up the LEO(s) to your presence when they get there and will also keep other CHL holders and LEO's from mistaking you for a BG.

Try to get in touch, or back in touch, with a 911 operator to update them on the situation and hopefully get that info through to the responding LEO(s). Don't leave anything up to chance and don't flee the scene. Just act calmly and don't have your gun out if you don't need it out any further. When LEO(s) arrive have both hands visible away from pockets; place them in the air to flag them down. That will give you something non-aggressive and non-questionable to do with your hands while they approach. I would strongly suggest you identify yourself as the one whom "disabled" the BG and let them know you are a CHL holder and that you are currently still armed; use words not actions to get that across, ofcourse. Don't dig in pockets for yo0ur gun OR your CHL license until you're told to do so.

I have never been in any situations demanding of these actions, but I have read these forums and other stories and have pondered much. So, by all means, if you disagree with any of my opinions on the best course of actions let me know.

I think the main issue is, what do you do if you still feel the need to keep your gun on the BG?