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I witnessed what was probably a gang initiation (at first I thought is was just a gang assaulting a child) take place in broad daylight, across from an elementary school. Four or five little gang bangers were kicking and beating a kid with 2x4s, and I mean literaly beating him. The kid was on the ground rolled up in a ball trying to cover his face while his buddies were raising the boards up above their heads and bringing them down as hard as they could. They did not hold back, they were even kicking him in his groin.

When I first spotted them I was sitting at a red light with some other cars. I know the other drivers saw what I did but only one car pulled into the parking lot with me, the rest drove on, I can't blame them.

I pulled into the lot already on the phone with 911 and honking my horn. I was hoping they would scatter, my adrenaline was flowing and while I'm not proud to admit it I was scared of these kids (but to be fair they were viciously attacking a human being) and I couldn't just drive by without doing anything while these little..."kids" beat someone to death.

I was getting ready to open my door and stand on the running board. I was planning on yelling, "Stop I've already called the police". I expected that they would scatter with that, and I was ready to jump back in my truck if they came at me. (And no, I didn't draw on them and try to hold them at gunpoint, not my job.) I just couldn't drive on by while a child was being assaulted.

I had managed to tell 911 there was an assault in progress and gave brief descriptions of the suspects and requested an ambulance because the kid was a bloody mess. But I wasn't prepared for what happened next. There I was, an armed (.45 IWB and a 12 gauge in a pillow case - a benefit of a folding stock - next to me) middle aged man afraid of these punk "kids". The driver that pulled into the parking lot with me exited her vehicle. She was a petite twenty something. When she jumped out she started screaming at these guys.

These kids had to be messed up on drugs. Instead of running away they stopped for a moment and turned in our direction, just staring blankly at the young lady and I. They were out of breath from beating the kid. I yelled that the cops were on their way. This seemed to register somewhat but the look on their faces was just bizarre, like they didn't know where they were, totally detached from reality. I told the lady to get back in her car and I reached over and grabbed the shotgun still in the pillow case. When they saw me lean into the truck they caught some snap and dropped the 2x4s. They all just shuffled off together down the street and disappeared into the neighborhood.

The kid undergoing initiation was just a mess, bleeding profusely and semi conscious. He kept trying to get up and we had to tell him over and over to lay down. When the ambulance arrived people stared coming out of the restaurant. adjacent to the church. I really didn't want to give a statement to LEO as this occurred in my own neighborhood and I didn't want problems with a gang, even if they were just kids.

The young lady that had stopped with me was crying, and I told her she was really brave for stopping. Then I got the heck out of there.

This all happened before I found this forum and I've learned a lot since then. I'm not sure what I would have done differently. If I had known that it was a gang initiation I would have thought twice about stopping. If my wife and our children had been with me, well, I would have just called 911 and kept going.

mctowalot wrote:What would you have done?

Shoot the ninja first...

In all seriousness, I think you did about what you could do under the circumstances. The boy getting the beat down was lucky you happened along. When I was attacked, nobody stopped to help. I think you're right, in that if I had my wife and son with me, I would probably not have stopped, or if I did, I would not exit the vehicle. But even if I were alone, there just isn't that much I could do. I'm not physically fit. I'm not orthopedically sound. I could only do one of three things: 1) call 911; 2) observe and be a good witness; and 3) shoot someone; and (3) is a last possible resort.

But I do have one thing going for me, and that is that my back hurts a lot of the time, and it can put me a bad mood. Then I become Captain Cranky with a Gun.

Then the issue becomes, "how much trouble am I going to get in by drawing my gun to emphasize what I mean when I yell 'STOP it, and LEAVE him alone!!'"

Captain Cranky to the rescue.

Purplehood wrote:Age has little to no bearing on this issue.

So true and that's one of the big places our laws and courts are wrong. A teen who shoplifts or commits a similar nonviolent crime may not deserve, for the first offense, to carry a criminal record for the rest of their life. However, a teen who attacks people (rape, robbery, aggravated assault) should not have their criminal record sealed, and should probably face the same penalties as a 20 year old who rapes, robs, etc.

Excaliber wrote:Under current law, that's correct. However, I'm not at all in favor of the concept of using an offender's supposed reason for the crime as an element of the offense and calling it a "hate crime" if it falls into certain categories. This may be relevant to establishing a motive, but doesn't have any impact on what happened as a result. Our laws were simpler and justice more even handed when they focused only on what you did and whether you intended to do it or not.

I agree. In a just society, we would get the discrimination out of the law, and treat offenses the same regardless of whether the victim had a different skin color, or religion, or was a nerd, or worked for the government, or anything else.

However, until the law is changed, these racists should be prosecuted under the law that is on the books. Any judge or DA who would treat this differently than if the colors were reversed, or different than they would treat a gay bashing, is racist and doesn't deserve their job.

Hoi Polloi wrote: These children were already hardened criminals and studies show that putting delinquents together increases their delinquencies. If they are truly in a gang, their disordered sense of pride in their "family," revenge, and the honor of being shot or hurt for the gang puts them into a completely different category from the group of neighborhood bullies.

These "children" of whom you speak know that they won't/can't be prosecuted because of their age.

The older I become, the more Old Testament I become. IOW, "if you're old enough to do the crime, you're old enough to do the time", "an eye for an eye", etc., etc. Whatever happened to public floggings and executions? Isn't it time we did away with all of this social conscience and political correctness nonsense and returned to the values and mores that made America what it was?

Drinkey time

Tamie wrote:

Purplehood wrote:Age has little to no bearing on this issue.

So true and that's one of the big places our laws and courts are wrong. A teen who shoplifts or commits a similar nonviolent crime may not deserve, for the first offense, to carry a criminal record for the rest of their life. However, a teen who attacks people (rape, robbery, aggravated assault) should not have their criminal record sealed, and should probably face the same penalties as a 20 year old who rapes, robs, etc.

I believe most if not all states have a process for trying minors as adults. They have a hearing in which the prosecution argues that the minor was able to understand the full consequences of the action when it was undertaken. If successful, the minor is treated as an adult regarding sentencing, sealing, etc. They usually only do that in particularly egregious cases.

Oldgringo wrote:The older I become, the more Old Testament I become. IOW, "if you're old enough to do the crime, you're old enough to do the time"

If they're "man enough" to gang up on a lone victim, they're "man enough" to be tried as an adult.

Trial as an adult should be the norm. Getting special treatment because of age (for a first offense only) should require jumping through legal hoops, not the other way around.

I would pull my weapon and defend myself. Ten to one odds puts me at an extreme disadvantage. I cannot whip ten people at the same time.

Back on topic now.

This thread has just about ran its course.