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I'll add to Mr.72...

You typically need two hands to rack a slide, right? The situation may arise where you don't have 2 hands free, but only one. And hopefully it's your gun hand.

-Cain

CainA wrote:I'll add to Mr.72...

You typically need two hands to rack a slide, right? The situation may arise where you don't have 2 hands free, but only one. And hopefully it's your gun hand.

-Cain

VERY GOOD POINT!

First, great thanks to Mr. 72 and others for clear, thoughtful responses. You have given me some things to think about. Let's see...

mr.72 wrote:<snip>These guns have a long, deliberate, and rather heavy trigger pull. It would be exceedingly difficult to get the trigger to pull while the gun is being carried, and I think it would be absolutely impossible if the gun is carried in a decent holster that covers the trigger. The gun is holstered with no tension on the striker so even in the event of a malfunction, it will not fire. You have to pull the trigger all the way back to get it to fire, period.

So the question is, what risk are you concerned about with carrying your Sigma chambered?

I do appreciate the long, heavy trigger pull of the Sigma in this respect. The belly band I use most covers the trigger, but it's not all that secure. And I wear it high, so removal from the holster is awkward. I could imagine getting a finger on the trigger accidentally and that could result in a negligent discharge, but hard to imagine with THAT trigger. But maybe with 1/2 gallon of adrenaline... I don't worry about accidental firing it after it's drawn or someone else getting the gun. It's more on the draw or something besides my finger getting in the trigger guard. When I carry in a fanny pack, it's unholstered, but the only thing in the pack. Again, not likely, but somewhat distantly possible. Maybe an unreasonable caution?

mr.72 wrote: OK, now from a practical matter, you asked if we could describe a situation where you wouldn't have time to rack the slide. Frankly when I run scenarios in my mind where I would ever have to use a gun, I can think of very few where I would have time to rack the slide on a pistol. If I have that much time, I have enough time to get away without shooting, in most cases. In fact, most circumstances where I think you would need a gun, I think you will be lucky to have enough time to draw. The very reason I am carrying a gun is because of these split second situations where escape is not an option and I only have seconds to defend my life. So I chose guns, holsters, and carry methods that are compatible with my philosophy: my gun needs to go bang as fast as I can get it drawn and pull the trigger.

I guess we're looking at pretty much the same situations and making different conclusions. I see a guy standing there with a gun pointed at me with his finger on the trigger at 6' away, and I think, no way am I pulling a gun at that moment, 'cause there's no way I'm getting one off before he does and I'm just insuring that I'll get shot. You see the same situation and conclude that you can't possibly stand the time for racking the slide if you're gonna have any tiny chance of getting a shot off in time.

mr.72 wrote: Let's just look at what are the most common self-defense scenarios that may involve your use of a gun, which would include aggravated assault, robbery, or burglary.

I consider situations where I'm in public and there is a general threat or someone else is being threatened and I don't already have the full concentration (and aim) of the BG. Or in the robbery situation, I'll wait until he turns or directs his attention to someone else, or something, rather than guarantee that I'll take a bullet immediately. He may not, and I may get shot, but drawing at that point has very little chance, so I think I'd risk hoping for a better opportunity. Are these unreasonable situations/approaches?

In the home under a burglarly is where I most don't like the thought of having to rack the slide because it gives away my position which was formerly unknown. But there's also a shotgun which already has one in the chamber for that purpose.

mr.72 wrote: Maybe you are knocked to the ground, punched, or already at gunpoint. It's not "seconds count", but fractions of a second can be the difference. I don't think you will have time to rack the slide and you will be fortunate to have time to draw and fire.

I agree that I would be fortunate to have time to draw and fire. At this time, I'm not real comfortable with escalating the situation on the hopes of being fortunate.

mr.72 wrote: I am sure Excaliber and others will step in and correct me where I am wrong. This topic gets discussed here and on other gun forums quite frequently, but I still think it is important to talk about.

I agree and appreciate your very helpful post. I'm not expecting the "Jimmy the Tulip" example, but also don't think I would draw when someone already has me at gunpoint. I'd be interested to know if the group feels that drawing in that situation is a good idea (seriously). You have given me some things to consider though. For example, in a robbery or assault, if the BG gets distracted for just a moment or goes to another victim, it might provide enough time to have a reasonable chance of getting a shot off *if there's one in the chamber* but not otherwise. Also need to think about the level of risk of carrying with one in the chamber. An emotional "feeling" about the level of safety is really not sufficient. But it's hard to quantify the risk level of various approaches. Thanks for the input!

CainA wrote:I'll add to Mr.72...

You typically need two hands to rack a slide, right? The situation may arise where you don't have 2 hands free, but only one. And hopefully it's your gun hand.

-Cain

Well, *either* is my gun hand in a pinch.

This is a very serious consideration. Would suck to be able to get to your gun but only have one hand available. That could be the deciding factor. Hmmm...

Hi, Dave. I don't want to clutter up the thread repeating anything, but having glanced through it one suggestion I'll make is to seek out some advanced-level defensive handgun instruction. Running through "what if?" scenarios mentally may have you come to some conclusions that are not supported by practical application. Too, that way you don't need to reinvent the wheel: you can learn from many years of experience from a well-known professional. Getting that informed foundation will help you make good decisions as you go forward.

Just two other quick notes:

SlowDave wrote:The belly band I use most covers the trigger, but it's not all that secure. And I wear it high, so removal from the holster is awkward.

If this is a primary carry gun, not a back-up, then that's a big red flag to me. If you consider your carry method to be insecure and awkward to access, then it probably isn't a good way for you to carry.

IMHO, the most important element of a solid, consistent, combat drawstroke is the initial grip on the gun. If the grip can be obtained quickly, firmly, and with minimal articulation of the wrist, many ills can be tolerated actually getting the gun out of the holster and on target...meaning you can accommodate moving rapidly "off the X" and other dynamics of a situation. But if that initial step in the draw, the grip, is faulty or insecure, there's a good chance that nothing else will happen as expected.

SlowDave wrote:In the home under a burglarly is where I most don't like the thought of having to rack the slide because it gives away my position which was formerly unknown. But there's also a shotgun which already has one in the chamber for that purpose.

Interestingly, while every instructor I know (except for the Israeli system) will tell you that your handgun is designed to be carried with one in the chamber, shotguns are not.

Most pump or auto-loading shotguns employ a simple trigger stop as a safety. This is not a true mechanical safety like you find on rifles of military heritage, such as ARs and AKs. Unless a shotgun (like a Saiga) has a mil-spec safety, it is not drop-safe and storing or carrying it (for longer than it takes to deal with the matter immediately at hand) with one in the chamber is contraindicated. The proper "ready" condition recommended for most shotguns is a charged tube, chamber empty, safety off.

Best of luck, and have fun with your new journey!

Absolutely... if one carries for self defense and can't shoot off-hand, there is a serious gap in one's training.

I think the simple factor is that you're not thinking through ENOUGH situations. Now, you've gotten to a point where you believe you know what you are and are not comfortable with and you carry accordingly...this is of course always the best course of action. My suggestion is that perhaps through training you could become MORE comfortable with a carry method that allows a greater degree of flexibility. Let me give you an example.

If a rational BG is holding you at gun point and you have your gun concealed, and the BG doesn't have any distracting elements going on, you are correct, it's probably not going to matter one single iota that you don't have one sitting in the pipe. You're going to get shot if you try to draw.

But how about this? Your BG is no longer rational. Maybe he's a little tweaked on drugs, and he's robbing you. Maybe you have family members with you. His attention is divided. He gets distracted by something outside of the situation... he flips out and turns and fires.

I believe this is a situation where any one of us would feel fully justified in putting this guy down and stopping him from threatening our families.

You don't have ANY clue how long he's going to remain turned. He may fire once and flip back and keep shooting at a perceived (in his drug addled mind) threat.... you and yours. So you have but a fraction of a second to draw and fire. Do you want to take up part of it with having to rack the slide under UNGODLY pressure?

I'm not saying you're wrong to carry the way you carry. I'm suggesting that if you train yourself to carry your firearm in a manner that's more fire-ready, you give yourself an extra amount of response time that will help you in some margin of situations. It will turn some situations you would not be able to respond to having to rack the slide, into situations which you now will be able to respond. It will turn situations that before were a bit dicey into situations that you have far more time to control as you have less to worry about. The more time you have, the more advantage you have on your side. And self defense is ALL about management.... management of time, advantage, circumstance... It's about not making mistakes, and part of being mistake free is preparation.

Nothing is ever perfect. If it was, we wouldn't have to carry guns.

SlowDave wrote:First, great thanks to Mr. 72 and others for clear

You are very welcome.

The belly band I use most covers the trigger, but it's not all that secure. And I wear it high, so removal from the holster is awkward.

IMHO, you need a different holster. Belly band is designed to be worn at the belt line so the presentation of the gun is just as if it were IWB. A Sigma is awfully big to be carried in a belly band anyway but I would certainly consider it, but only as the maximum size pistol I'd carry in that type of holster. After having tried a few carry positions I am a pretty firm believer that for a mid-size pistol like that, 3:00-5:00 for a right hander is ideal if you cannot deal with about 1:00 appendix carry, all IWB unless you are wearing a big cover garment. I really like my Crossbreed for my SIgma.

wrote: I guess we're looking at pretty much the same situations and making different conclusions. I see a guy standing there with a gun pointed at me with his finger on the trigger at 6' away, and I think, no way am I pulling a gun at that moment, 'cause there's no way I'm getting one off before he does and I'm just insuring that I'll get shot. You see the same situation and conclude that you can't possibly stand the time for racking the slide if you're gonna have any tiny chance of getting a shot off in time.

Well, if you are not going to draw in that situation, then IMHO you might not need the gun to begin with. But your carry position (high riding belly band) also precludes one big advantage of something like 4:00 IWB carry, which is the "OK, I'm reaching for my wallet" ruse. I figure it's pretty simple. Once the BG is robbing you at gunpoint, he has already decided you are not armed. Much like my description in the other thread of handling my gun in mixed company at my house without anyone noticing it, I think if the BG is busy watching to see if anyone else is watching his hold-up, and also figures that you are not armed, then when you go for your "wallet" and come up with your gun firing, you are not as likely to be shot as you might think. I also don't think the BG is going to be six feet away from you when he's asking for your wallet.

But still, that one circumstance aside, there are a myriad of other situations that I can think of where the BG doesn't already have the drop on you where I still wouldn't want the time or inconvenience of racking the slide. Given that it's Christmas shopping season, the parking lot robbery is high on my list. So maybe the BG doesn't have a gun on you YET but once you stop, turn around, and they say "your money" and some four-letter words, you pull your gun, and get shot while racking the slide because of course, the BG is either going to run, or he is going to draw his gun which is certainly loaded and ready to fire.

I consider situations where I'm in public and there is a general threat or someone else is being threatened and I don't already have the full concentration (and aim) of the BG. Or in the robbery situation, I'll wait until he turns or directs his attention to someone else, or something, rather than guarantee that I'll take a bullet immediately. He may not, and I may get shot, but drawing at that point has very little chance, so I think I'd risk hoping for a better opportunity. Are these unreasonable situations/approaches?

The first thing you describe is kind of the armed gunman kind of thing, right? Or a bank hold-up or something? Like in the movies? I think that's extremely uncommon and I wouldn't plan for that.

The other thing about being robbed is that I don't think it's true that whether or not you draw is going to increase your chances of getting shot. Your chances of getting shot are already very high if a dude has pulled a gun on you. But I am not an expert in this area and there are many others who are on this forum so I will just try and leave them some room to answer the question.

However, no matter what, I think in this situation, having to rack the slide makes the gun all but useless, and would greatly increase your chance of getting shot.

In the home under a burglarly is where I most don't like the thought of having to rack the slide because it gives away my position which was formerly unknown.

You're thinking of a home-invasion type of burglary? I think the BG would be surprised by your presence most of the time in this case. It'd take a seriously stupid criminal (or one on drugs) to break into your house to steal something knowing you are in there, wouldn't it? However I bet in most real cases, the guy breaking in knows you are there before you know he is there. He's not going to use a battering ram to knock the door down and wake you up. It takes me 5 or more seconds to get awake and get my bearings when the smoke alarm goes off in my house. How long will it take you to get awake, figure out what's going on, and determine there is someone in your house, when they quietly and discreetly open a window and sneak in? Will they not have figured out that you are in there by then? Like when your wife wakes before you and turns on the light, shakes you awake and shouts "THERE'S SOMEONE IN THE HOUSE"? That's how it'd be in my house :) I'm hoping the BG either flees right then and there or I had better already have a gun in my hand.

At this time, I'm not real comfortable with escalating the situation on the hopes of being fortunate.

I guess maybe that's the big difference. Once someone has demonstrated their willingness to do me physical harm, I am not going to assume they are content to stop doing me harm until I am dead, or until they have been forcibly stopped.

but also don't think I would draw when someone already has me at gunpoint. I'd be interested to know if the group feels that drawing in that situation is a good idea (seriously).

Well every situation is different, and maybe there is a chance to draw and maybe there is not. But I think the odds of there being a chance to draw and rack the slide without getting shot at are almost zero. But there's no way to know. One thing is for sure, it's faster to not have to rack the slide, so just based on simple math, it can't be worse to be carrying with one in the chamber.

in a robbery or assault, if the BG gets distracted for just a moment or goes to another victim, it might provide enough time to have a reasonable chance of getting a shot off *if there's one in the chamber* but not otherwise. Also need to think about the level of risk of carrying with one in the chamber. An emotional "feeling" about the level of safety is really not sufficient. But it's hard to quantify the risk level of various approaches. Thanks for the input!

I think you nailed it right there. If you had a holster that you knew was secure in protecting the trigger, then you would probably not be concerned about it. Also if you had a carry position where you knew you could draw quickly and without giving away the fact that you are pulling a gun, then you might reconsider your chances of getting to your gun in time to prevent yourself from getting shot at or robbed.

I have considered a belly band but I would use it basically as a substitute for having to wear a belt to carry (under conditions which I now carry my SmartCarry ... and I don't really like the SC very much). Like with running shorts, etc. But I don't think I would bank on it as my primary means of carry if I was carrying something as big as a Sigma. If you can conceal the Sigma in a BB, then you can probably conceal it in a normal IWB holster and improve your draw, retention and trigger protection.

Thanks for all the input. Addressing a few of the topics:
When I referred to a public place, I wasn't thinking of a bank robbery. Don't assume I'm a *complete* idiot. Since I go to the bank at least every 5 years... okay, 8, it's fairly unlikely that I'm gonna stumble into a bank robbery. On the other hand, I get gas all the time and convenience stores are fairly common targets, so I'm thinking of something like that. And I think that's worth consideration in the realm of situations in which I'm most likely to need a gun.

I realize an IWB would be a much quicker draw. However, I don't really think I can carry that way. I don't know how others do it, so maybe I should talk more and try some. But I personally require very good concealment and IWB doesn't seem to offer that. When I've tried, I need a bigger pair of pants, and there's a large lump where my gun is. I can't imagine a setup where it's comfortable to sit, so driving is an issue. The belly band, worn high, puts the gun under my arm, above the waistband, where it's pretty much undetectable. It might not be the best draw, but it's way better than when the gun is not with me. I really have to stretch to come up with a situation where the extra couple of tenths of a second of racking the slide is going to make a significant difference. But it could potentially happen, so...

As to the safety of the shotgun with one in the chamber: it's under the bed in a case with the zipper open. I'm not too afraid of it going off by itself with the safety on, and if it does, it blows a load of buckshot into the wallboard and maybe into the bricks beyond. If I pick it up to use it, I'm gonna be holding it for a lot shorter period and with much less chance of dropping or banging it than I do when I hunt with it. I would, on the other hand, be quite averse to carrying it around in that manner during all my waking hours.

I appreciate all the input, and am interested in trying an IWB that is good, but I don't really want to pay $80 or more to "try" one. Are there stores, or gun shows, or some event where I can try before I buy? Guess I'd have to wear my way the heck too big pants to the event, but I guess I could blow $30 in hopes that I'd find something that didn't feel (and look) like I had a rock in my waistband, even if I can't imagine it exists.

So, I guess I'm open to recommendations as to IWB holsters. I typically wear some kind of Dockers and button up shirt (started wearing an undershirt to accomodate the belly band), and untucked shirt is not an option nor is a jacket for 10 months of the year. It'd be nice if it also worked on weekends with shorts or jeans and a t-shirt, but I could make something else work for that if I had to. Another nicety would be if it were actually made for a Sigma (i.e. Comptac products are out, as far as I know).

Thanks again everyone!

http://www.highnoonholsters.com/Product ... _gate.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I recently ordered this IWB holster. I don't have it yet so I can't recommend it personally, but had it personally recommended by some folks on the Beretta forum. it's clip is designed so that you can tuck your shirt in. They have about a 6 month backlog. SO I have a few more months to go.

My current carry holster is a Don Hume. I just got my CHL plastic yesterday, but I've been wearing the Don Hume around the house. It's all right, but not a good permanent solution. But so far I find that 1 or 2 o'clock is most comfortable for me. I'm 6'4" and weigh about 200 pounds, and with just a tshirt on over, the gun gets lost. I tested the theory last night by going shopping at Vista Ridge with the wife. Even she didn't know I had it, and she knew I got my plastic that day.

Hate to tell you SlowDave but I think you may need a smaller pistol as well as an $80 holster.

Anyway I was surprised how well my Sigma conceals with my Crossbreed, and it's a tuckable holster. I don't know where you are located, but you would be welcome to try my old Crossbreed. The new ones are more adjustable. I almost never use it since I carry the Kahr nearly all the time. I wish I had one for my Kahr!

FWIW I didn't change the size of my jeans in order to carry. But with the Kahr and the FIST ultra-thin Kydex holster, the jeans are just a bit more snug than they are without it.

I tell ya, SlowDave, you really need to try racking the slide in some kind of controlled drill and see how that works out for you. I'm willing to bet it doesn't. Your handgun is designed to be carried with a round in the chamber. Are you really willing to risk your life because of some nebulous fear of a loaded gun that has been planted in your mind somehow. People carry loaded guns every day. Done properly, in a proper holster, it is perfectly safe.

I know you didn't want to hear this, but it really is true: a gun that isn't loaded is just a club. As a practical matter, if you don't have a round in the chamber the gun really isn't loaded.

Mr. 72 wrote:He's not going to use a battering ram to knock the door down and wake you up. It takes me 5 or more seconds to get awake and get my bearings when the smoke alarm goes off in my house. How long will it take you to get awake, figure out what's going on, and determine there is someone in your house, when they quietly and discreetly open a window and sneak in?

Unless you leave your windows unlocked, double pane glass windows like most of those in Texas residences are not easy or quiet to break into.

Most burglaries are through doors, and while burglars generally don't carry battering rams, they do "mule kick" (kicking backwards) doors because this technique will usually cause enough damage to the lock and frame in most houses to get the door open in 1 or 2 seconds.

Burglars who enter at night are extremely dangerous because they can reasonably figure you are home, and they don't care - they're ready to deal with that.

Surprise encounters between burglars and homeowners happen all the time under several circumstances:

1. Homeowner leaves doors unlocked. Burglar makes quiet, unobserved entry and meets homeowner somewhere else in house.
2. Homeowner hears someone at the door and doesn't answer the knock or doorbell. Burglar figures house is empty, goes around to rear, and kicks in door.
3. Burglar is happily ransacking a bona fide unoccupied house when the homeowner comes back and reoccupies it.
4. Homeowner is sleeping, in the shower, etc. and doesn't hear the initial entry.

bdickens wrote:I tell ya, SlowDave, you really need to try racking the slide in some kind of controlled drill and see how that works out for you. I'm willing to bet it doesn't.

I have tried it, depending on what you mean by "controlled drill". And it works pretty well. It takes me longer to get on target (at 20ft) than anything else. The time to rack the slide is minimal in comparison, but it is still >0. Also, if it's a point-blank situation, then no time to get on target and the racking time becomes a bigger portion of the time. Does require 2 hands though.

Next time out, I'll have someone time me and get the actual time difference between one already in the chamber vs. me having to rack the slide and I'll report back my findings. I estimate ~1/4 second difference, but would be good to have the data.

bdickens wrote:I know you didn't want to hear this, but it really is true: a gun that isn't loaded is just a club. As a practical matter, if you don't have a round in the chamber the gun really isn't loaded.

I strongly disagree. I give you the option in a fight of a gun with a full magazine but nothing in the chamber or one that is completely empty. Your statement is that these are identically capable of self-defense. I submit they're not (unless you limit the fight to a certain set of possible circumstances). If it's "just a club" then the empty one is equally capable, so you'll be happy to take that one right? Just say what you really mean: a pistol with one in the chamber is much more ready to be brought to your defense than one without one in the chamber (which I agree with). Don't exaggerate that to destroy your own argument.

mr.72 wrote:Hate to tell you SlowDave but I think you may need a smaller pistol as well as an $80 holster.

Anyway I was surprised how well my Sigma conceals with my Crossbreed, and it's a tuckable holster. I don't know where you are located, but you would be welcome to try my old Crossbreed. The new ones are more adjustable. I almost never use it since I carry the Kahr nearly all the time. I wish I had one for my Kahr!

FWIW I didn't change the size of my jeans in order to carry. But with the Kahr and the FIST ultra-thin Kydex holster, the jeans are just a bit more snug than they are without it.

Smaller pistol... I've considered that. Issue is, it seems the main dimension that gives me difficulty is the thickness, and that is only cured by getting away from a double-stack, which I'm not real comfortable with (lower capacity), but I guess I could consider. Also not very common (single-stack) in my preferred .40 S&W. Bigger issue: if I'm too cheap for a drawerful of $80 holsters, imagine my reluctance to spend another $500-$1000 for a second pistol. Do you have recommendations?

PM sent with my location. That'd be great if I could try yours.

What are you planning on doing when you need your other hand for something else?