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drjoker wrote:Like austinrealtor, I have to go d e e p undercover. My wife hates guns so I don't have any at home.

Wow. My wife wouldn't be my wife if she wasn't okay with my firearms. My wife isn't "into" guns, but she doesn't hate them. I'm not judging you or your situation at all, but in my case, before I got married I always broke off relationships with women if they were anti-gun.

Maybe someday she'll come around...hopefully it won't take a bad situation to cause that to happen. Good luck!

MojoTexas

drjoker wrote:Like austinrealtor, I have to go d e e p undercover. My wife hates guns so I don't have any at home. I have managed to stash a Keltec from her at my neighbor's house that I'll carry if she wants to go to South Dallas for BBQ or go on a long road trip. Shhh...! She doesn't know! That's how discreet a Keltec P3AT is. I really hate the recoil. It's a very snappy little gun and the quality is less than a Glock, but it does go bang and it is small enough to successfully conceal from the Mrs. I hate the gun (I'd rather carry a Glock 19 or a .45 Kimber 1911), but it is the only thing that can be concealed in all situations from everyone. You'll never be "made" and the round it fires .380 is a lot more powerful than a subcompact revolver (.22). It will hold 6 shots while a derringer only holds 2. Therefore, a little gun like the KelTec or Ruger LCP is the king of the subcompacts. The only thing better is a Rorhbaugh 9mm, but you can buy 3-4 Kel-Tecs for the price of one Rorhbaugh. Plus Rorhbaughs are impossible to find. They're like unicorns or Seecamps. I have heard of them but I've never seen an actual Rorhbaugh. Considering that a Rorhbaugh cannot fire +P ammo, it's only marginally better than a .380.

The Rorhbaugh I kinda classify as the Lexus of pocket pistols. Well made, a bit pricey, and not as common as a LCP or KelTec and so forth. I almost purchased one I found in Cabela's but they wanted something $800 and your left kidney. I passed. Guns like the LCP, Seecamps, etc are great but just too small for what I want. Currently I dont even own a pocket gun. I tend to favor a larger frame for my hands.

My wife doesnt hate guns but she was of the mindset for a long time that only police should carry guns having worked for a PD herself too. She has since changed that opinion. She doesnt ask if I am carrying or not anymore. She just assumes I am it doesnt bother her at all. And she has since come around and likes to shoot tho she doesnt have a CHL yet. Of course I did butter her up by buying her a S&W 686-4 snub and she LOVES it and brags about shooting her gun. I may have set an expensive precedence now however.

Also I realize your wife doesnt like guns but have you taken her shooting or tried to and maybe help educate her about self defense? I did that with my wife and it worked it great. She now feels more safe that I carry and glad I have the means to protect our home and family. Im getting her to the point where she is wanting her CHL. I know asking your wife "Hey hunny I was thinking lets go shoot guns! What do you think?!" probably may not be the best approach. But for my wife teaching her gun safety and how to shoot was a confidence builder for her once she realized she could do it. Once I explained my beliefs and reasoning for having a CHL she came around.

Yes, comforting. I carry a 9mm Beretta px4 storm ... carries 17 rounds, double action on first shot and single action thereafter. I also have a S&W38 special j-frame but I rarely carry it as I find the 9mm more comforting as I am so much more accurate with it. I've purchased shirts that are a size larger to accommodate the more comforting gun. Thanks for all the posts ... most informative!

maximus, you summed up my Mom pretty well too. Not the LEO part but never much to do w/ guns until Dad died. Short story is, she learned & loved it.
Before leaving the first range session she said, "this is fun. It could be addicting."
Yes & a little expensive too. I load all she can shoot. Ammo not gun. She loads her own gun. Cleans too. THat's another short story too.

Carries everywhere legal.
Sig 232.

Comfortable = LCP
Comforting = XDSC40

Always carry one, depends on work wardrobe for that day. Some days I am a technician and others I am in marketing. Marketing wardrobe requires a much more stealth carry setup, hence the LCP. Obviously feel better on days when I can carry the .40 caliber over the .380, but I practice a lot more with the LCP. So hopefully if I ever need the .380 to save my hide, all my range time and training will equal some hits to the vitals. Also stuff the LCP with Lawmans instead of Gold Dots for increased penetration. (Short Barrel G.D.s in the XDSC40) Just my .02

For those of us who much newer to CHL, this matter can be a difficult one. I've been around long guns all my life but pistols are a new area for me. Having read a lot before I dived in, I'm trying to follow what I think are the principals that I read about:
- carry what you can handle. I felt like the 9mm was a compromise over the .45ACP but I've comfortably practiced with the Sig and have confidence that I can handle it in most situations where I might need it. The "most situations" qualification is based on tactical use, not the gun itself
- pick something and carry it for a year. My shooting and confidence with the Sig is growing better. I continue to practice with it. I can already see that it was a mistake not to get night sights. I'd prefer to take my time and figure out what else, including a different caliber, I might want to change. In the mean time, I have something rather than nothing. I've tried to read and understand the debates between the 9mm vs the .45ACP advocates. There seems to be valid points on both sides. I also know that the DAO is not something I want to do again. I made a concious compromise there, fullying understanding that dealing with a decocker is not something my wife was going to handle well. My original thinking was that this Sig might eventually turn into being her gun.
- concealment is a matter of preparation. OK but not entirely. The P250 Compact gives me a slightly smaller frame to deal with. I think the rest is just familiarity. When I first started driving a 36' air brake equipped RV, that was familiarity to but it was a huge transition from driving even our E150 van. Miles and years later, I don't have the apprehension that I once had.

Those who have long experience with pistols may not recognize the mental challege that some of the rest of us have. There is nothing magic about receiving that piece of plastic in the mail that instantly transforms us into feeling comfortable 10 minutes later with strapping on a huge .45 with one in the pipe and heading off to Wally World. I've never been a "dive into the deep end of the pool to learn how to swim" type. I'm feeling much more comfortable now than I was two weeks ago. I'm sure that another couple of weeks will help a lot. Maybe a year from now, I'll look back and wonder about any apprehesion that I had. It is indeed comforting to know that I may be able to deal with some bad that tries to happen to me and my family. That comfort will increase as I learn and practice. I can see the time when I won't even notice that I'm armed while doing routine things. That time just isn't here yet.

I think that one of Excaliber's posts on another thread comes to play here. He was talking about how a "warrior" type projects a certain image to the BGs that those of us without that training and experience will never be able to mimic. I agree with that line of thinking completely. I think that it comes down to figuring out "who I am with a gun." It is different than without one. To me, being comfortable with myself in that new position is dependent on:
- my inner confidence with my ability to fire the gun and expect to hit what I'm aiming at. That is not just marksmanship but being able to adapt to a fluid, real life situation. It took me less than firing 10 rounds at a paper target to figure that out but the limitations on where and how I can shoot are an inibitor to overcoming the problem. Bass Pro is not going to allow me to practice the way that I need to for this. I haven't read enough yet to be comfortable about how I do need to practice.
- fine tuning my situational awarenss. I've never lived in condition white. I worked 3rd shift in downtown Phila in the summertime on and off for years. But my new enviroment is different. There, my only option was to try avoid the situation or to run. A couple of the guys that I worked with then were unlucky enough to face situations where those options didn't work. My preparations for dealing with those split second decisions will help me improve my comfort level. My biggest concern is that I won't be able to recognize the situation soon enough and deploy my gun fast enough to deal with in time. I sense that I'm not alone on this matter. To the extent that I feel that I have something that I cannot use correctly when I need it, I'm not comfortable but it isn't a physical comfort.
- on the physical comfort side, I'm Ok - not great. The Sig and MTAC holster are fine but I'm still very aware of them, not matter how much I try to simply go about my business. It is longevity thing, I'm sure. I also have a fanny pack which I'll probably use when we are camping since it doesn't look at all out of place there. I'm not physically comfortable with that yet either but I have very little experience with it. I'm still trying to figure out the best postion for it.

I've been accused of overthinking things. I probably am here, too. Sorry, it is a hard habit to break The good part of it is that I don't just zone and and do things. The bad part of it is that I probably worry about more aspects of any given situation that I would need to. I'm trained in risk management and I think it just goes with that type of thinking.

chasfm11, that was a great post. I very much enjoyed reading your very personal thoughts on these matters. I think others will gain from reading them too.

I've been carrying 12-plus years, and even I rarely "forget I'm carrying".

As for "real world" or "tactical" training (basically: how I'm I going to draw/present this gun and fire accurately if God-forbid I ever need to do so) ..... dry fire draw practice helps a lot. And time yourself - have a friend use a stop watch. So you can quantify your improvement.

Also try something like IDPA or some other timed shooting event that requires you to draw from a holster, engage multiple targets etc. These events welcome all comers - all age groups, experience levels, and skill levels. They're meant to provide a safe place to have fun and learn/practice.

I think that one of Excaliber's posts on another thread comes to play here. He was talking about how a "warrior" type projects a certain image to the BGs that those of us without that training and experience will never be able to mimic.

This I don't agree with. I think having a warrior mindset can be learned but for many it is a part of who they are. They have it with or without training or experience. I have seen many men and women who haven't had training have this attitude and be able to project it.

CompVest wrote:

I think that one of Excaliber's posts on another thread comes to play here. He was talking about how a "warrior" type projects a certain image to the BGs that those of us without that training and experience will never be able to mimic.

This I don't agree with. I think having a warrior mindset can be learned but for many it is a part of who they are. They have it with or without training or experience. I have seen many men and women who haven't had training have this attitude and be able to project it.

Ok. I'd agree that some people have an innate warrior mentality. But if you weren't born with it and weren't trained to create it, you are still left with the inability to project it. My guess is that is more than 50% of us - perhaps the percent is even much higher than that.

Don't get me wrong. There are things that I think all of us can do to transmit some level of confidence. Walking with confident, purposeful strides, keeping one's head up, not buried in the ground, looking at the next step, being alert and constantly surveying our surroundings and making eye contact and maintaining it in a fixation stare at an even slightly possible threat. But if I understood Excaliber's point, he was going beyond all of that. It is the same sense that makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up. I can feel that vibe from others. I cannot project it back.

I'm not expert but I do think even BGs come in a couple of different flavors. There are those who are survival savvy. They are perhaps that most dangerous because they are likely to be fearless in the face of a warrior, viewing the situation as a challenge. The BG who murdered the two Christian musicians would be one of these. He had no regard for his own life and thus could not care less about anyone else's. I assess those as the most likely to kill for the mere sport of it. Then there are those who are strung out on some substance that they wouldn't recognize if a dog lifted its leg on them. They have an intention, whatever it might be and can withstand a lot of pain in attempting to achieve it. Those are the ones that TAM talked about carrying a 400lb gurney that they were strapped to out of a room. Lastly, there the ones that were called "electricity" in another thread because they were seeking the path of least resistance and were the most likely to be driven off by even a perceived response.

Trying to tie this back to comfort, I think that our natural initiation automatically help us to select among the BG options. The question for me is what do I do about it. The fixation stare might influence the latter BG group, who would also be looking at the purposeful walk, etc. I'm confident that I can project on them. I don't think that I have enough moxy or training to do much to the other two groups. Perhaps I never will.

CompVest wrote:

I think that one of Excaliber's posts on another thread comes to play here. He was talking about how a "warrior" type projects a certain image to the BGs that those of us without that training and experience will never be able to mimic.

This I don't agree with. I think having a warrior mindset can be learned but for many it is a part of who they are. They have it with or without training or experience. I have seen many men and women who haven't had training have this attitude and be able to project it.

The reference cited wasn't a quote, and I think the general reference to the actual thought may have lost a bit in the translation. What I actually said was:

"For the folks who haven't spent time around either highly trained "sheep dogs" or violent street criminals, think about what's said here in terms of predator / prey interactions. Life is much easier if street predators don't see you as prey. If they do, there are 4 ways things can go:

1. If you see trouble coming in time, you may be able to avoid / evade / escape

2. You can do something to convince the hungry predator you're a predator too and he shouldn't start the game because the encounter won't be easy or fun. Many of the most effective things are nonverbal, as outlined above. However, someone who doesn't have the heart of a warrior won't be able to fake those parts, and if they try, they'll draw bad guys in like bees to honey......"

The heart of a warrior can indeed be developed and projected by determined folks who do not have all of the advanced training and experience of a veteran officer or soldier, and depending on how strong that heart is, it may well be enough to dissuade a BG's approach.

My point in #2 was that this can't be faked. Someone who is not in fact prepared to counterattack with explosive fury just isn't going to be able to project the nonverbal signals that would convince a predator otherwise. Bluffing sends a confused signal that BG's see as a huge green light because they know it marks someone who will fold when confronted.

It shouldn't be surprising that someone who has actually used explosive violence repeatedly in real encounters in a law enforcement or military setting and won most of those fights will generally project a greater degree of calm confidence that gives would be predators the creeps. This creates the kind of anxiety a fox might have if he were dumb enough to close with a cougar and see the gleam in that animal's eyes as they lasered in and fixed on him with a nonverbal: "Dinner!". This is not a different phenomenon, just a matter of degree.

Contrary to common belief, BG's don't attack for challenge. Their strategy is exactly the opposite, and for good reason. They consistently attack those they believe are weakest so they have the greatest likelihood of repeated success over time. (Drug habits have to be fed regularly). They don't want fair fights, and they don't want split decisions. They want to emerge from each encounter unscathed with what they came for, which in many cases involves sadistic power tripping as well as money.

chasfm11 wrote:

CompVest wrote:

I think that one of Excaliber's posts on another thread comes to play here. He was talking about how a "warrior" type projects a certain image to the BGs that those of us without that training and experience will never be able to mimic.

This I don't agree with. I think having a warrior mindset can be learned but for many it is a part of who they are. They have it with or without training or experience. I have seen many men and women who haven't had training have this attitude and be able to project it.

Ok. I'd agree that some people have an innate warrior mentality. But if you weren't born with it and weren't trained to create it, you are still left with the inability to project it. My guess is that is more than 50% of us - perhaps the percent is even much higher than that.

Don't get me wrong. There are things that I think all of us can do to transmit some level of confidence. Walking with confident, purposeful strides, keeping one's head up, not buried in the ground, looking at the next step, being alert and constantly surveying our surroundings and making eye contact and maintaining it in a fixation stare at an even slightly possible threat. But if I understood Excaliber's point, he was going beyond all of that. It is the same sense that makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up. I can feel that vibe from others. I cannot project it back.

I'm not expert but I do think even BGs come in a couple of different flavors. There are those who are survival savvy. They are perhaps that most dangerous because they are likely to be fearless in the face of a warrior, viewing the situation as a challenge. The BG who murdered the two Christian musicians would be one of these. He had no regard for his own life and thus could not care less about anyone else's. I assess those as the most likely to kill for the mere sport of it. Then there are those who are strung out on some substance that they wouldn't recognize if a dog lifted its leg on them. They have an intention, whatever it might be and can withstand a lot of pain in attempting to achieve it. Those are the ones that TAM talked about carrying a 400lb gurney that they were strapped to out of a room. Lastly, there the ones that were called "electricity" in another thread because they were seeking the path of least resistance and were the most likely to be driven off by even a perceived response.

Trying to tie this back to comfort, I think that our natural initiation automatically help us to select among the BG options. The question for me is what do I do about it. The fixation stare might influence the latter BG group, who would also be looking at the purposeful walk, etc. I'm confident that I can project on them. I don't think that I have enough moxy or training to do much to the other two groups. Perhaps I never will.

Simple things like good posture, head swivels, a purposeful walk, etc. can all have a deterrent effect without making a bad guy think he might be in danger. Those things communicate alertness. Alert folks are hard to ambush because they see and respond to unusual approaches. BG's look for victims they can get right up to touching distance from without being recognized for what they are because this sharply narrows a potential victim's options.

There was a survey done among experienced street criminals in prison some years ago. They were shown pictures of pedestrian scenes and asked to pick out "good" victims. They picked out the folks who kept looking down, were distracted, or appeared to be in a fog every time.

There may be a bit of a misapprehension about criminals' characteristics here. "Survival savvy" and "fearless" are opposites in the criminal world.

The guy who killed the two Christian musicians went out with the intent of committing a robbery and shooting someone, but his victim selection process was driven by random chance and no indication of risk. He spent an extended period of time talking to them and sizing them up before making his decision. He actually walked away once, made his decision, and returned to commit his crime. This is a strong indication that he wasn't sure what he was going to do with them until the last moment. That's survival savvy, not fearlessness. If the victim who had a CHL and reportedly "always" carried (except for the night he most needed to), he might well have handled himself differently and sent off the type of signals the murderer would have interpreted as enough of a potential problem to have kept walking when he started away the first time. He was and is most certainly a stone cold sociopath. Those folks look for victims they can totally dominate rather than those that present a risk of failure - or worse.

I purposefully didn't put anyone's name on the quote as it was rather a third party statement! I just wanted to get across that there are warriors who have never seen combat or combat training.

CompVest wrote:

I think that one of Excaliber's posts on another thread comes to play here. He was talking about how a "warrior" type projects a certain image to the BGs that those of us without that training and experience will never be able to mimic.

This I don't agree with. I think having a warrior mindset can be learned but for many it is a part of who they are. They have it with or without training or experience. I have seen many men and women who haven't had training have this attitude and be able to project it.

Compvest is right. There are also those that have been cowed & made afraid that can deal w/ that also & develope the "not a victim attitude."
I know a lady of age very well that 15yrs ago was very timid, so beaten down that she would not stand up to anyone over anything. Today she is a Lady by all standards & a warrior immediately when needed. I have seen her flip the toggle swithch twice.
Today, dont mess w/ Mom.

longtooth wrote:

I know a lady of age very well that 15yrs ago was very timid, so beaten down that she would not stand up to anyone over anything. Today she is a Lady by all standards & a warrior immediately when needed. I have seen her flip the toggle swithch twice.

Longtooth, could you please elaborate on the process by which she made the transformation? I am personally doing some deep thinking about this subject. A few months ago I would not have expected to have anything to do with guns, but I became somewhat interested after my husband got his license and bought a couple guns. And now I am awaiting my CHL.
-Kat