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RECIT wrote:How good of a group is pretty good?

Heh heh heh..... nevermind.

I've been considering assembling an AK platform weapon. Having done a couple of ARs now, the thought of assembling an AK doesn't seem as intimidating as it might otherwise have seemed. That said, I'm still a little up in the air about whether to convert a Saiga .308, or buy parts for either a commie 7.62x39 or 5.45 caliber gun.

I was chuckling at the group size comment because there's "accurate" semi auto .308s, and then there are accurate .308s. I own an M1A Loaded model, to which I've done a few relatively minor upgrades. Is it accurate? Well, yes, it is accurate.......for a semi-automatic battle rifle. With match ammo, it will consistently shoot under 1.5 MOA, and occasionally under 1 MOA. It also seems to like Federal Fusion 165 grain cartridges, and has produced one or two .5 MOA groups with that—although not with any degree of regularity. Anyway, I would call it a pretty accurate rifle for what it is. And in the real world, 1-1.5 MOA may be less important in a firefight than being able to get lots of rounds down range with 2-4 MOA accuracy. And it is certainly "accurate enough" for use in most hunting applications inside of reasonable distances. I actually bought it as a "hog-mauler."

On the other hand, I've got a heavy barreled Reminton 700 in .308 that is an unbelievable tack driver with certain loads. With my favorite load, it will shoot 3/8" groups with great regularity. For better or for worse, that is the standard I tend to keep in my head when I assess what "accuracy" means to me in .308 caliber rifles. So by that standard, even my very nice M1A leaves something to be desired.

So, if the Saiga .308 can produce the same kind of accuracy as a common issue-grade M1A/M14, or a FN-FAL, then I would call it acceptably accurate. By that standard, "pretty good groups" could mean anything up to maybe 3 MOA. The point of all of this is that "pretty good groups" is a "pretty relative term." It can't really be defined without knowing what your baseline standard is. In truth, it is unfair of me to compare Saiga .308/M1A/AR10 accuracy to my Remington 700. Certainly it is possible to build an AR10 or an M1A that will be as accurate as my Remington......but at what cost? And again, coming back to the real world, if you can put a .308 caliber bullet with "acceptable accuracy" into the vitals of a man-sized target—or a white-tail, or a hog—at 200 yards, does it really need to be more accurate than that?

I've made the statement quoting some great gun author of the past that "only accurate rifles are interesting." Well, I should have said, "accurate rifles are the most interesting," or words to that effect; because even though my M1A isn't nearly as accurate as my 700, it is still an interesting rifle and I derive great enjoyment from shooting it. More importantly, I have confidence in it. If I decide to build from a Saiga .308, I'm sure I'll enjoy it nearly as much in the long run. But all of that is moot anyway as I'm tending to lean more toward a folding 5.45 carbine.

I didnt measure any of the groups but at 100 yards with Iron sights I would say 2-2.5" groups. This was with Silver Bear SP steel cased ammo.

As soon as I get my Millett DMS-1 scope I will put it through more thorough testing with measurements and pics for proof.

I certainly didn't buy this for match shooting. This is for fun and a problem arises day's ;) I have to say this is really really fun to shoot. Probably the most fun weapon I have fired.

As someone else pointed out to me their 5.56 rounds are $.36 per round and my .308 are $.42 per round, the .308 is def $.06 more fun per round to shoot :)

uthornsfan wrote:I didnt measure any of the groups but at 100 yards with Iron sights I would say 2-2.5" groups. This was with Silver Bear SP steel cased ammo.

As soon as I get my Millett DMS-1 scope I will put it through more thorough testing with measurements and pics for proof.

I certainly didn't buy this for match shooting. This is for fun and a problem arises day's ;) I have to say this is really really fun to shoot. Probably the most fun weapon I have fired.

As someone else pointed out to me their 5.56 rounds are $.36 per round and my .308 are $.42 per round, the .308 is def $.06 more fun per round to shoot :)

You can have match grade ammo for only a little more than $.42/round if you hand load.

Hornsfan, nice .308! Hows the magazine market for them these days? A few years ago there wasn't much and I'm hoping someone has stepped up to the plate.

I am running SureFire 10 rounders but they also make 20 / 25 rounders.. Unita and Csspec make some good mags according to others. I like my surefires, way better than stock.

http://uintaindustries.com/product-line/parts/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/sure ... p-139.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://stores.csspecs.com/-strse-5/saig ... Detail.bok" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Annoyed Man wrote:

RECIT wrote:How good of a group is pretty good?

Heh heh heh..... nevermind.

I've been considering assembling an AK platform weapon. Having done a couple of ARs now, the thought of assembling an AK doesn't seem as intimidating as it might otherwise have seemed. That said, I'm still a little up in the air about whether to convert a Saiga .308, or buy parts for either a commie 7.62x39 or 5.45 caliber gun.

I was chuckling at the group size comment because there's "accurate" semi auto .308s, and then there are accurate .308s. I own an M1A Loaded model, to which I've done a few relatively minor upgrades. Is it accurate? Well, yes, it is accurate.......for a semi-automatic battle rifle. With match ammo, it will consistently shoot under 1.5 MOA, and occasionally under 1 MOA. It also seems to like Federal Fusion 165 grain cartridges, and has produced one or two .5 MOA groups with that—although not with any degree of regularity. Anyway, I would call it a pretty accurate rifle for what it is. And in the real world, 1-1.5 MOA may be less important in a firefight than being able to get lots of rounds down range with 2-4 MOA accuracy. And it is certainly "accurate enough" for use in most hunting applications inside of reasonable distances. I actually bought it as a "hog-mauler."

On the other hand, I've got a heavy barreled Reminton 700 in .308 that is an unbelievable tack driver with certain loads. With my favorite load, it will shoot 3/8" groups with great regularity. For better or for worse, that is the standard I tend to keep in my head when I assess what "accuracy" means to me in .308 caliber rifles. So by that standard, even my very nice M1A leaves something to be desired.

So, if the Saiga .308 can produce the same kind of accuracy as a common issue-grade M1A/M14, or a FN-FAL, then I would call it acceptably accurate. By that standard, "pretty good groups" could mean anything up to maybe 3 MOA. The point of all of this is that "pretty good groups" is a "pretty relative term." It can't really be defined without knowing what your baseline standard is. In truth, it is unfair of me to compare Saiga .308/M1A/AR10 accuracy to my Remington 700. Certainly it is possible to build an AR10 or an M1A that will be as accurate as my Remington......but at what cost? And again, coming back to the real world, if you can put a .308 caliber bullet with "acceptable accuracy" into the vitals of a man-sized target—or a white-tail, or a hog—at 200 yards, does it really need to be more accurate than that?

I've made the statement quoting some great gun author of the past that "only accurate rifles are interesting." Well, I should have said, "accurate rifles are the most interesting," or words to that effect; because even though my M1A isn't nearly as accurate as my 700, it is still an interesting rifle and I derive great enjoyment from shooting it. More importantly, I have confidence in it. If I decide to build from a Saiga .308, I'm sure I'll enjoy it nearly as much in the long run. But all of that is moot anyway as I'm tending to lean more toward a folding 5.45 carbine.

No one expects bolt gun accuracy or even M1A accuracy out of an AK platform...I was just wondering what was pretty good in the eyes of the owner. I was not expecting great accuracy, but even 3-4" groups are acceptable out of a battle rifle. With all the upgrades available for an M1A I would not put them in the same accuracy ball park as a FAL. I think the FAL is a lot closer to the Saiga than just about anything else out there. I would think just about everything else made in .308 will be more accurate (as far as group size) than a Saiga or FAL. That is not to say that they are not accurate though.