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My response is likely the same for 1 or more BG's if they're trying to rob me...

Essentially, I'd create my own diversion by throwing my money clip at their feet or just behind their feet if the angle is right. The idea being, get them to look down at the money.
I'd do this while saying loudly, "HERE. TAKE MY CASH!"

I'd bet BG's will look immediately at the cash. (I keep cash in a clip for this very reason, so I don't have to lose a wallet... maybe)

Then, depending on the situation, I either run my butt off or engage if there's no escape option.

Essentially, most of the time, BG's are going to choose to just take the money than engage me if I'm running away.
And if I can't run and/or must engage for some reason, hopefully it gives me enough of an opening to draw on him/them while moving.
One way or another, I'm going to throw the cash and move. The situation will determine whether I'm firing at them while moving or using all my energy to just sprint away.

Serpentine Pattern! Run-in-a-serpentine-pattern!

One thing to realize in any confrontation where you're facing an armed BG:

Expect to be shot yourself.

Real life is not the movies, where dozens or hundreds of bullets fly and only the people who should be hit will be. If you are one of the combatants, the likelihood of you stopping a round are good. Obviously, there are many considerations in whether you'll be shot, such as surprise, speed of action, violence of action, how proficient your enemy is, etc., but you should not expect to emerge unscathed from an armed confrontation.

There's always that (nsfw) "Collateral" video clip showing how it's done.

bayouhazard wrote:There's always that (nsfw) "Collateral" video clip showing how it's done.

Yo, homie...

AndyC wrote:Use grandma as a sandbag and return fire.

Seriously, you can do everything right and still die. A few points come to mind:

1. Surprise, speed and aggression are good things.
2. A vehicle is a weapon.
3. Action beats reaction - most folks holding a gun on you will have a reaction-gap of a second, maybe 2, before they realize something's happening. It might be enough time to draw, disarm or run.
4. Distance = life.
5. Awareness trumps all except dumb luck.

The reaction gap for someone with a drawn gun is actually around a half a second - not enough time for most of us to draw and fire. Even if we were able to channel one of the IPSC champs for that moment, the likelihood is that at about the same time as you got your first shot off, the other guy would be firing as well. A tie is a bad thing in a gunfight.

A well practiced disarm might work - but remember that in such attempts, the gun fires around 90% of the time, so you'd want to make sure your initial muzzle redirection move is really quick and effective.


You might be able to extend that processing time by some fractional amount with surprise, speed, aggression, screams, etc. to present more OODA loops that have to be worked through, but street folks are pretty good at prioritizing their way through these things without getting terribly distracted.

My answer, and I am not at all trying to be flippant, is to avoid the possibility of such situations in the first place. I realize that this is not 100% foolproof, but situational awareness is the key. In the military, they teach soldiers to recognize potential ambush situations, and then to either have a plan for avoidance, or a plan for neutralizing the threat.

Jeff Cooper put it in terms that are easy enough for civilians to understand (SOURCE):

1. White - Unaware and unprepared. If attacked in Condition White, the only thing that may save you is the inadequacy or ineptitude of your attacker. When confronted by something nasty, your reaction will probably be "Oh my God! This can't be happening to me."
2. Yellow - Relaxed alert. No specific threat situation. Your mindset is that "today could be the day I may have to defend myself". You are simply aware that the world is a potentially unfriendly place and that you are prepared to defend yourself, if necessary. You use your eyes and ears, and realize that "I may have to shoot today". You don't have to be armed in this state, but if you are armed you should be in Condition Yellow. You should always be in Yellow whenever you are in unfamiliar surroundings or among people you don't know. You can remain in Yellow for long periods, as long as you are able to "Watch your six." (In aviation 12 o'clock refers to the direction in front of the aircraft's nose. Six o'clock is the blind spot behind the pilot). In Yellow, you are "taking in" surrounding information in a relaxed but alert manner, like a continuous 360 degree radar sweep. As Cooper put it, "I might have to shoot."
3. Orange - Specific alert. Something is not quite right and has your attention. Your radar has picked up a specific alert. You shift your primary focus to determine if there is a threat (but you do not drop your six). Your mindset shifts to "I may have to shoot that person today", focusing on the specific target which has caused the escalation in alert status. In Condition Orange, you set a mental trigger: "If that person does "X", I will need to stop them". Your pistol usually remains holstered in this state. Staying in Orange can be a bit of a mental strain, but you can stay in it for as long as you need to. If the threat proves to be nothing, you shift back to Condition Yellow.
4. Red - Condition Red is fight. Your mental trigger (established back in Condition Orange) has been tripped. "If "X" happens I will shoot that person".

The woman in the other thread who got car-jacked with a shotgun in her face was living in Condition White. Consequently, she was completely unprepared for what happened. I am not unsympathetic. It was a terrible thing to have happen. But, it was potentially entirely avoidable. Depending on what she was driving, she might have easily just driven over those stones and kept going. It might have damaged her car, and that would have been an unexpected expense and a major inconvenience, but she would have avoided having a shotgun stuck in her face.

Of course, Cooper's analysis assumes that the person in Condition White, Yellow, Orange, or Red is armed with the means to shoot an attacker. But, that is not absolutely necessary for the principles to be put in practice. Maybe the person doesn't own a gun, or has an anti-2nd Amendment bias; but that doesn't mean that he or she can't have a padlock in a sock, or a bat, or know how to use their keys as a weapon, etc., etc. Even more importantly, simply learning to live in Condition Yellow can give you a leg up and help you to avoid getting into a situation in the first place where a padlock in a sock, or a 1911 becomes necessary to defend yourself.

So, I know that isn't a perfect answer, but it is the best I can do for myself. I can't run. I am physically unable to fight hand-to-hand. That leaves me the choices of avoiding trouble as much as possible by living in Condition Yellow, and shooting my way out of it if things escalate the Condition Red. The approach is the same whether it is one or two or three attackers, and whether they flank me, come from the rear, or all bum-rush me from the front.

Excaliber wrote:A well practiced disarm might work - but remember that in such attempts, the gun fires around 90% of the time, so you'd want to make sure your initial muzzle redirection move is really quick and effective.

One of the first "gun books" I read was Combat Handgunnery by Ayoob (forgot which edition, years ago). One of the things that stuck with me is that he said in the event that you're within arms length and the BG goes for his gun... you go for his gun too. At the very least control his muzzle, and it can give you much-needed seconds to draw your own weapon.

I thought so long and hard about it (without practicing) that I did it without thinking once in a scenario-based training exercise with some local law enforcement friends. I had performed a traffic stop, returned to my vehicle to check paperwork, and when I returned the "driver" whipped out a pistol. Before it could even aim at my chest, my hand was already on it, holding the slide and pushing it away to the front of the car... I didn't even realize I was doing it until I was finished It hadn't even occurred to me to draw my own weapon

Keep in mind that I had never practiced it up to that point, and I'm FAR from fast. It worked well though, and I was surprised... and so were the others.

The Annoyed Man wrote:Jeff Cooper put it in terms that are easy enough for civilians to understand

Demonstrating his ability as a teacher, that's even easy enough for professionals to understand.

"And as to "amateur," I prize the adjective. The amateur does it for love, where a professional does it for money. As we have often asked, who does it better?"
- Cooper's Commentaries, Volume 2, Number 8

"So when I began to teach pistolcraft, first at Big Bear, then at Gunsite, I emphasized variety, realism, and the Weaver Stance. I thought that I covered the subject, but I ran into a theoretical obstacle. I discovered that there is a basic divergence in purpose between the amateur and the professional. The amateur seeks excellence. The professional seeks adequacy."
- Cooper's Commentaries, Volume 8, Number 3

The Annoyed Man wrote:Consequently, she was completely unprepared for what happened. I am not unsympathetic. It was a terrible thing to have happen. But, it was potentially entirely avoidable. Depending on what she was driving, she might have easily just driven over those stones and kept going. It might have damaged her car, and that would have been an unexpected expense and a major inconvenience, but she would have avoided having a shotgun stuck in her face.

According to the news story, she did drive over the stones, but not until after she was robbed.

sawdust wrote:


BG>>>>> YOU <<<<<<BG.........................<<<<<<\YOU/
................\YOU/ ............................ \ YOU/
.......... ........\YOU/....................\YOU/
.......................\YOU/...........\YOU/
..............................\YOU/

My apologies also for the non-artistic approach.

Move like this, but also remember to engage the BG you are moving around (the one on the right for this diagram), while you are moving. Like any combat situation the key is staying aware, staying clam, aggressiveness and skill.

Great thread. I'm no expert, and that is who the OP is addressing, BUT, in the case of the grandma in tow (she can't run), I would push my kid, grandma, etc to the deck with me and hold onto them to keep them there, and hope (pray that) the BG's will ignore us. I don't see anything smart about dropping the kid and drawing fire toward us by engaging in a firing duel.

I need to train more